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Thread: Tank Hybrid for clerics?

  1. #16
    Prophet of Telara
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shas View Post
    Warr/Mage > Primalist > Cleric > Rogue
    I personally see the rogue hybrid tank at the top because he just can heal and support at the same time. For the last boss in BoS, for example, you only need a rogue tank and save the bard/oracel. With any other tank hybrid class you would still need a supporter or healer. I don't know if a cleric hybrid tank can do it that well.

    I also think that the Rogue is one of the better DD hybrid tanks but probably behind the primalist hybrid dd tank.
    Last edited by Bamul; 02-10-2019 at 03:33 PM.

  2. #17
    Ascendant Flashmemory's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bamul View Post
    I personally see the rogue hybrid tank at the top because he just can heal and support at the same time. For the last boss in BoS, for example, you only need a rogue tank and save the bard/oracel. With any other tank hybrid class you would still need a supporter or healer. I don't know if a cleric hybrid tank can do it that well.

    I also think that the Rogue is one of the better DD hybrid tanks but probably behind the primalist hybrid dd tank.
    I don't think Cleric can. They have high GCD and Defitank requires full maintenance of dots on a specific target in order to heal. They also need to heal through that target and if the target dies they have a very very long set up to get to the burst party healing functionality. It would be too niche and would heavily influence the content design team making content have to be restricted or crippled to make the cleric work as a niche support Tank that can heal. One of the reasons why we have dummy type bosses is because of cleric now IMO. The restricted playstyle sort of forces the content developers to develop around it. It shouldn't and I think that was a big beef between the Class Dev and Raid Dev both which quit Trion.

    Rogue and Primalist seem to have been graced with the best synergy for tanks. Mage seems good as well. Cleric lost its reasons to tank with bringing healing and in battle rez. Other tanks are far superior healing tanks. I am not sure about the warrior but they can get guard for low points so at least synergy is not really as restricted. Cleric needs at least 16. It is possible they are trying to phase out cleric because of lack of good class devs. It is very easy to add QoL changes that would have helped cleric in other roles about a year ago like just making the legendary Fervent Strike a 30m ability when it became legendary. This would allow the inquisitor to have competitive ST with say an elementalist fully buffed but many clerics are choosing the other mastery that makes the fervent 20m and losing roughly 100K dps for doing so. This makes INQ play like a range class kind of should. It is not full 30m range but at least they don't have to run into melee to refresh their best damage buff for inquisitor. Inquisitor also has virtually non existent cleave in comparison. I think both Pyro and Inquisitor need DPS buff but additionally, cleric need a competitive range passive cleave or AE with similar dps to elementalist or what inquisitors can do now when spec'ed for running in to refresh FS.

    Clerics do have unique abilities the devs can build content around but I am positive if they exclusively build content around it not all tanks can be used on that content which will negatively impact the game and make it feel like those classes wasted their time developing hybrids for content that only one or two classes can do because that content requires that tank. My advice to those who are thinking about gearing up a tank after the change is to wait and see if Gamigo Devs didn't make only a very exclusive tank be the tank of choice in all the content because of a niche ability or multi role synergy.
    Last edited by Flashmemory; 02-11-2019 at 05:36 AM.

  3. #18
    Champion Shas's Avatar
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    Hate to say it but it feels like many classes/specs can do TOO MUCH.
    Imagine being in the spe with the bee hives. You are tanking but then you need to step in to interrupt, dps, tank and heal if you want to get over with it. Which specs come to your mind that can do it.
    Alone that there are clases which can provide it all in such situation is mind blowing.
    Eventho being able to have fun on a support spec is something good. - I personally don't like it when people provide too many jobs in a raid. It ends up a few players doing the heavy lifting (like a Kyzan/ guurloth/ finric soloheal on puri/ warden) / the amount of bs you had to do on enigma as Harbinger next to the relaitvely stressful rotation. But with a Ppano tank doing 3 jobs at once this shifts it from single encounter to a general meta. Imagine the fk up if the older 60/65 Beastmaster was responsible for tanking and cleansing. Are such mechanics even eccessary at this point when there are only a few people doing them in the end?

    Please more bosses like Gelidra, Ig in general. Proteus, thrax, not-buggy-inyrkta etc where you may want some people to adapt theyr build or play unordinary specs in general to get the job done.

    @rogs not being the best tank variant. Same reason primalists usually don't tank: The st dps loss compared to other classes why should they even dump top st top aoe potential into something tanky?

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  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shas View Post
    @rogs not being the best tank variant. Same reason primalists usually don't tank: The st dps loss compared to other classes why should they even dump top st top aoe potential into something tanky?
    I think it's still a dmg gain for the raid to use a rogue tank hybrid that brings the barde/oracel buffs and can heal the raid alone instead of using the rouge as a full DD. Depends of course also on the group composition and how much cleave potential is present or is needed at all.

    It would be best if a cleric hybrid tank can take on this role as he is currently the worst DD but i has no idea if this is possible.

    I could also imagine that an Archontank + Defihealer (can heal a raid in most cases alone makes good dps and brings the 5 % magic debuff and all the major oracel buffs) would be a good combination for most raids in the game. I just don't know if the Archontank would be able to manage bosses with adds.

  5. #20
    Champion Shas's Avatar
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    Then you get a cabbatank to cc the sht out providing alot of dmg negation :P

    Happy little mindmaps for encounters which are not there yet.

    -> cleric eternal totem. Fervent Strike default 30m and 30(15)% gogo ffs

  6. #21
    Ascendant Flashmemory's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shas View Post
    Then you get a cabbatank to cc the sht out providing alot of dmg negation :P

    Happy little mindmaps for encounters which are not there yet.

    -> cleric eternal totem. Fervent Strike default 30m and 30(15)% gogo ffs
    Caba CC was actually nerfed. Take a look at Dominion. It no longer refreshes the snare or stun CC like it use to. So that leaves purge and interrupt many times in a row which has never really been needed and shouldn't be needed because it is too exclusive and it forces every other class to be massively lazy and avoid mechanics like interrupt and purges. Now if you actually want a CC tank Rogue actually wins over caba. For instance, caba stun is only 2secs. long every 30 secs. vs sab which is 4secs. long every 30 secs. Caba is no longer a god at CC.( I know Justicar also get a single target 2 sec stun but also consider the GCD. That is just 1.33 GCD for them vs 4 GCD of CC for the rogue tank!)

    It seems like a lot of work and pressure for the cleric tank just so the life of the rest of the raid to be even significantly easier than it already is. In my experience the tanks job has been already to raid lead, position and use cds well. Making them have to cast @focus for interrupt/stun or to purge different targets can become very complicated and more pressure for the tank all so that your capable other 9 raiders don't have to worry about watching for purges and interrupts.

    And as for crowd displacement type control VK is the king of it. Cleric only gets a single AE pull every 1 minute! You need 54 points in Druid for a single pull every 15 secs. A VK gets to refresh both its summons based on the healing received and it is virtually up 2 or more times, both AE and ST summon every 15 secs. and it is built into Void Knight itself. Warlord synergy offers even another pull for ZERO points. Seems like Cleric has it the worse from all parts of the game now. VK already had purge built into its spec as well.

    Primalist tank hybrids can provide the 5% magic debuff as well. I am not sure about the DPS tank synergy of it though but its possible. It just seems like Cleric lost even more things that made it semi worth bringing to raid other than to just be a carry for loot drops.

    Well, we are talking about trying to min/max your raid. In the end it seems like bringing a player who chose cleric to raid would become more like doing that player a favor since in total they have the weakest synergy and options of all the classes in every role. I really don't like the value of Cleric worth relying on their ability to be the solo interrupter and purger... or raids devs building content around this niche and very unrewarding playstyle. It makes progression with cleric feel irrelevent when they can't compete as healers and dps or bring support buffs and dps or healing.
    Last edited by Flashmemory; 02-12-2019 at 01:28 AM.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flashmemory View Post
    Primalist tank hybrids can provide the 5% magic debuff as well. I am not sure about the DPS tank synergy of it though but its possible.
    With the dps/tank spec i posted here You can switch 3 point from tank spec to vulcanist spec and get the 5% magical debuff , you only loose around 200k dps and the taunt , which is still around 1m dps as tank.

  8. #23
    Shield of Telara Skiye's Avatar
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    It is annoying that Cleric is the only soul that requires a 16 point investment to get the tank buff. Most are 6 or 8, and primalist is a paltry 2 points invested. SMH...

    Not posting a "woe is me" here, but clerics did get the short end of the stick here. Lowest dps, most difficult to heal with, long GCD for most specs, few options for mobile specs, and now we're about to lose our niche as tanks.

    I felt bad for warriors before they got their rework, but clerics are long overdue for some love. There's a severe glut of useless legendaries, so many bugged abilities, and every damage spec requires Fervent Strike, which was a band-aid solution to begin with and takes away a mastery just to make it short range.

    An easy short term solution for the Justicar tank buff would be to swap a few abilities around.

    Just swap the positions of Doctrine of Bliss for Mein of Leadership

    I'd also swap Precept of Refuge and Mein of Honor.

    Moving those two would at least bring cleric more in line with other tank souls as far as ability positioning.
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  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shas View Post
    Hate to say it but it feels like many classes/specs can do TOO MUCH.
    Imagine being in the spe with the bee hives. You are tanking but then you need to step in to interrupt, dps, tank and heal if you want to get over with it. Which specs come to your mind that can do it.
    For me this one is easily managed by even a 61-point justicar in SPE gear. Conviction management by legendary Even Justice plus heal management via Doctrine of Bliss/Loyalty.
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  10. #25
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    Skiye,

    what do you think about using beacon of despair with righteous mandate? Drop oracle and take druid for more self healing or runeshaper for a replacement to FS or inquis to get sanction/vex and bol spam. You will lose a ton of dmg/hea not getting the 1 sec gcd, but you already lost that with your idea the beacon has a built-in intercede and with using intercede and link of misery would have 75% dmg reduction for 10 sec/min (effective hp of 1.2m). Going sent, for symbol, or puri for shielding on the beacon or let your raid healers shield the beacon meaning the beacon would be pretty tough to kill even with it's tiny hp pool I am not sure how it factors armor, but it possibly take the stacks without having to swap?

    The biggest issue would be defensive spin, the raid would have to move instead of the tank and initial setup as you would have to pull the boss place beacon, allow threat to pull off the tank and then have the raid dps in 3-5 seconds instead of right away. The build wont work for titan at all. but you could simply go to your regular tank build for titan or let your other tank finish the fight and go dps/heal

    I bet salvation spam alone could heal it through a boss fight even with the reduced output.


    maybe something like this?

    https://ibb.co/gP6x44X
    Last edited by beefy1212; 04-11-2019 at 09:40 AM. Reason: added spec

  11. #26
    Shield of Telara Skiye's Avatar
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    Cheers to Barabbas,

    Beacon tank is the best tank.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okWBs9hKnR0
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  12. #27
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    Sky or bara can you share the build/rotation used? I didn't see mandate used, or any salvation healing going off. Actually at 37-8k healing not seeing much of any healing but maybe that was just what happens when you have 600k+ mage healing happening?

    I did see some symbol spam so i am guessing puri/defili/justicar?

    I have tried to setup the beacon a few times in tdez runs and always seemed to have a problem with getting the beacon down mandate up and starting a heal rotation on the beacon, this is largely because my guild thinks it is funny to go ballz out dps before i even pull and then bounce tank the boss, but even so I found it almost impossible to get a heal off on the beacon before it was killed by bel.

    My BOS group though which uses 2 cleric tanks on az has had the OT use the defilihealer build as the off tank to success

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by beefy1212 View Post
    Sky or bara can you share the build/rotation used? I didn't see mandate used, or any salvation healing going off. Actually at 37-8k healing not seeing much of any healing but maybe that was just what happens when you have 600k+ mage healing happening?

    I did see some symbol spam so i am guessing puri/defili/justicar?

    I have tried to setup the beacon a few times in tdez runs and always seemed to have a problem with getting the beacon down mandate up and starting a heal rotation on the beacon, this is largely because my guild thinks it is funny to go ballz out dps before i even pull and then bounce tank the boss, but even so I found it almost impossible to get a heal off on the beacon before it was killed by bel.

    My BOS group though which uses 2 cleric tanks on az has had the OT use the defilihealer build as the off tank to success
    Looks like they have someone healing the beacon other than the tank. Looks like they have an FK/Chloro.. instead of a dps chloro.

  14. #29
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    I can see the beacon is getting healed, that wasn't my question.

  15. #30
    Shield of Telara Skiye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beefy1212 View Post
    Sky or bara can you share the build/rotation used? I didn't see mandate used, or any salvation healing going off. Actually at 37-8k healing not seeing much of any healing but maybe that was just what happens when you have 600k+ mage healing happening?

    I did see some symbol spam so i am guessing puri/defili/justicar?

    I have tried to setup the beacon a few times in tdez runs and always seemed to have a problem with getting the beacon down mandate up and starting a heal rotation on the beacon, this is largely because my guild thinks it is funny to go ballz out dps before i even pull and then bounce tank the boss, but even so I found it almost impossible to get a heal off on the beacon before it was killed by bel.

    My BOS group though which uses 2 cleric tanks on az has had the OT use the defilihealer build as the off tank to success
    I'll bug Bara to post here later on, I'm not totally sure what his spec was TBH. The heal setup we used was a full chloro and a wardocle. It looks like the wardocle was puting up symbol shields for reasons unbeknownst to me.

    This was our alt run so half the group isn't as practiced with the classes they're playing. It looks like Bara was using 41 Justicar 35 Defiler or something close to that.

    https://prancingturtle.com/Encounter...geDone/207538#

    This wasn't so much as a planned "we're trying this" but more of a...

    Bara: "Hey Sep, I want to try something..."
    Me: "Sure go for it"
    Me: "Is that a beacon?" *laughing*
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