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Thread: [suggestion ]Defiler changes

  1. #1
    Plane Touched
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    Default [suggestion ]Defiler changes

    Dear Devs, dear community,
    discussing with cleric friends, noticed that NO ONE plays Defiler.

    Ok, it was the time to kill defiler as we used to know for raid balancing

    Ok giving cleric a dot based soul could be an interesting path

    But the the result is absolutely terrible. The playstyle is extremely clunky, and you cannot manage all those dots without some auto refreshing (Mage's warlock is a clear example of a very well working dot soul)
    Moreover, cleric have got really too much dps souls

    So, starting from Defiler that was a hybrid heal/dps, why not go the other way and transform Defiler into a full healing soul? I'd suggest an easy AoE Heal with some AoE dps and CC potential, that you can use in synergy with cabalist or warden depending on what you want to obtain
    Really hope this could be appreciated

  2. #2
    Plane Touched
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    Its a nice thought to have defiler change role again, but I suspect given the difficulty of getting balance for the already existing souls, another rework is off the cards at the moment.

    In the short term your point about lack of refresh is well made and I would suggest that the easier way forward is give Explosive Rage and Aggressive avarice a 20% chance per stack of greed / rage consumed chance to refresh the opposite DoT type. ie 5 stacks of rage used refreshes all greed DoTs on Target and 5 greed refreshes all Rage DoTs.

    Would still mean we work a bit harder at target switching than warlock, but if you hold bond of pain in reserve its only greed dots to put up when we switch. (maybe reduce the cd on bond of pain to 30s to make it easier in short fights)
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  3. #3
    Plane Walker
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    Some decent ideas there.

    For the near future I agree about some sort of auto refresh all dot mechanic. Once you go past 5 dots and debuffs to keep up you've gone overboard. Defiler has 9 to keep up.

    I'd also give defiler back it's 1 remaining damage intercept link so that it's a 1 hour buff.

    Warlord and Necro still have theirs. Why not defiler?

  4. #4
    Rift Disciple
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skiye View Post
    Some decent ideas there.

    For the near future I agree about some sort of auto refresh all dot mechanic. Once you go past 5 dots and debuffs to keep up you've gone overboard. Defiler has 9 to keep up.

    I'd also give defiler back it's 1 remaining damage intercept link so that it's a 1 hour buff.

    Warlord and Necro still have theirs. Why not defiler?
    My guess is because Warlord and Necro doont have a shield to help with the damage mitigation without sacrificing something but i do agree Defiler needs to be looked at since its dps is pretty bad for all the effort you need to put in to get anything above mediocre

  5. #5
    Plane Walker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystifal View Post
    Dear Devs, dear community,
    discussing with cleric friends, noticed that NO ONE plays Defiler.

    Ok, it was the time to kill defiler as we used to know for raid balancing

    Ok giving cleric a dot based soul could be an interesting path

    But the the result is absolutely terrible. The playstyle is extremely clunky, and you cannot manage all those dots without some auto refreshing (Mage's warlock is a clear example of a very well working dot soul)
    Moreover, cleric have got really too much dps souls

    So, starting from Defiler that was a hybrid heal/dps, why not go the other way and transform Defiler into a full healing soul? I'd suggest an easy AoE Heal with some AoE dps and CC potential, that you can use in synergy with cabalist or warden depending on what you want to obtain
    Really hope this could be appreciated
    Cleric range dps is arguably the worse in the game if you consider what the other classes bring with cleave and aoe. Inq is still good enough though with top end gear fragments and eternal. Unfortunately, nothing like the other classes.

    Out of all the remakes, like runeshaper, druid etc. I think defiler is actually the best one in terms of design. They can use some changes to functionality and removing the suicide greed call stuff and fixing mana issues. IMO, it really needed to have a 1 sec. gcd to get rid of the clunkiness. That is why it feels better when you hybrid with oracle. The problem is those specs are super niche and the dps of support is way too low to consider dps support hybrid.. its better to consider healing support hybrid atm although they are okay because of the tenebrious debuff when no one else to supply it.
    Last edited by Aedynn; 03-07-2018 at 03:42 AM.

  6. #6
    Plane Walker
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    Here's some easy changes I'd suggest for QOL, to help make the defiler a bit more competitive, and give it a purpose again.

    Miserly Form: Remove the below 60% part.
    Furious Might: Just make the buff a 1 hour self buff.
    Bond of Pain: Change the duration and cooldown to 20 Seconds.
    Summon Beacon of Despair: Change this to lower the cleric's GCD with death abilities by .5 and Somatic Desecration's cast time by 1.5 seconds (with talent it becomes instant).
    Link of Misery: 1 hour buff, lower total to 15% intercepted to match Brother's in arms.

  7. #7
    Soulwalker Ikamuni's Avatar
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    Defiler is nice the way it is right now. Actually, it is even broken to some extent in warfronts when properly paired with the right souls. In this screenshot I was top for damage output, damage taken, healing taken and #2 for healing output (coz primalist heals are way too broken):

    https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...-18_100523.jpg

    Another example for a smaller-scale warfront where I was top in all 4 stats: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...-18_091150.jpg

    I don't know any other class/soul that can pull off this kind of feat. So if any changes were to be made for defiler please make it so that it will be even MORE broken than it is right now, like increasing the base DPS of its skills or give it a 1sec GCD.

  8. #8
    Telaran
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    It's good for PVP (not very bursty but can put out a lot of damage and self healing), but the overall DPS for PVE is really bad.

    (I assume it has to do with the poor interactions with the eternal weapon buff.)

  9. #9
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    The defiler actively deals damage to itself to deal outgoing damage. Greeds call can hit for over 100K(because of unknown interactions to players debuffs/buffs stacking) even in PvP.

    The problem is actually the leaderboards + all these silly mechanics. The leaderboards should not register damage done to self. And the damage done to self should be nerfed in PvP along with legendary AA if they really wanted to fix it. Health/Damage abilities that add/remove a percentage of health back to a player should not count as an actual damage or healing on the leaderboards. And again the interactions between those abilities and others should be looked at so that there are no interaction that increases its output and damage to self.

    However, at this point it is better to delete the mechanic altogether or you will get same players who don't understand why it can do this posting the same thing over and over for years to come. Plus it is much easier to do this and give defiler a much better legendary non bandaid in the process.

    Case in point. In the original Rift we had souls that were broken that actually did top damage and healing. Souls like cabicar which was OP especially with a shield since it was outgoing healing and damage as well as incoming healing with no self damage. Souls like warchanter hybrids currently who can top damage and healing in PvE for instance for nearly the same reason. Souls like bladedancer in some very niche scenarios could top leaderboards in healing and damage. Souls like Parachanter which can solo 2 vs 1 and in some cases vs. 3 like back in NT. However, these souls were not actively attacking themselves to do it.

    If you played defiler pre POA you would have first hand experience of how nonsensical it was in PvP. There was no way to actively heal yourself through the damage you did to yourself. This may be why the dev added that legendary and why people say that it is a bandaid fix for a broken mechanic that can mislead players and in the future devs into thinking its OP.

    As for defiler being OP. Far from it. The average highs are something like 4Kish dps with the best cleave with burst something like 6K-8K+. That is 2 - 3x less than a solid dps. The average dps of most players playing this spec is in the mid 2K's -mid 4Ks. Again about 2x-3x lower than other dps. It can be lower when those dps actively cleave as they don't have to maintain a cleave to top its single target dps. For instance what a warlock was able to reach in PvP early in this expansion.. something like 20K dps+ per target.

    If the spec was doing something like 8K ST dps with burst and cleave up to 12Kish+(like all normal cleave specs) to represent the highs and the mechanic removed it would be more balanced for pvp/pve. Unfortunately it suffers from a low high average dps and low average dps even when you consider the cleave as maintaining the cleave is how you get top single target with this soul. Of course dps in general will have to be some what normalized to those numbers. I have seen classes like BD hit over 16K dps for instance with its dps not being able to be negatively impacted by purges/cleanses unlike most cleric souls.

    I was the first person to point out that damage to self mechanics for mana and healing just doesn't belong in PvP and it would lead to much more problems later on( like possibly with the new warfront). Including the Legendary AA bandaid fix being misinterpreted.

    This is a problem for MANY of the cleric souls. Some souls like Druid suffer a more or less similar problem but slightly different. Instead it has heavy mana usage which runs out frequently. So the ability acts as a proxy. It deals damage to self to regain the resources necessary to keep on dpsing. This is one of the top reasons it is rarely used in PvP.(that and the fact it continues to miss attacks more often than other physical damage abilities and insane long ramp up to burst.)

    Souls like puri still have problems with mana and attacking itself to regen it. Some souls still have high mana usage, warden who have to actively manage mana and take a penalty to its healing when doing so. Some souls have really poor mana regen abilities or none at all like runeshaper, cabalist and defiler. This is with considering the eternal so you can imagine without!

    My opinion still stands that this class is the most outdated class in Rift from a mechanical standpoint with very boring 1.5 sec gcds, cast times, channels, and mobility and resource penalties. It is in my opinion the most restricted class and that usually translates to less fun to play class in the game. You have a class that is being built to counter itself in many cases and that only stacks negatively against them when other classes are also being built to counter for example what cleanses and purges actually do to the class from a damage/healing point of view.

    There is even other ways to paint cleric in a brilliant light. For instance, if you go with a runeshaper/warden hybrid you technically can have the highest gcd burst in the game. But obviously, it is not practical because if it was players would be using it left and right in PvP. It is not like SL tempagon.. just like defiler is not like cabicar and other outliers of their time.
    Last edited by Flashmemory; 03-18-2018 at 10:23 AM.

  10. #10
    Soulwalker
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    The Class could use 1s CD instead of the 1.5 sec. Aside from that it's by far my favourite soul as it is.

  11. #11
    Soulwalker Ikamuni's Avatar
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    Well, defiler got nerfed pretty bad with the last update. The build I use in the screenshots I posted can now lose against opponents in single combat. Aggressive Avarice was the one good thing I had as a cleric in pvp and now they took that away. Do the developers really hate cleric that much?
    Cielune@Faeblight | Ikamuni@Faeblight | Zeruiah@Faeblight | Lucifuga@Faeblight | Lugina@Faeblight

    Originally from Seastone.

  12. #12
    Plane Walker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikamuni View Post
    Do the developers really hate cleric that much?
    Way too much double standards for this class. Also the hypocrisy they use to try to justify them as a class that is worth playing is astounding. The white knights are strong and yes this was once mentioned in a recent live stream.
    https://www.twitch.tv/videos/239424880.
    Last edited by Aedynn; 03-26-2018 at 06:24 PM.

  13. #13
    Soulwalker Ikamuni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aedynn View Post
    Way too much double standards for this class. Also the hypocrisy they use to try to justify them as a class that is worth playing is astounding. The white knights are strong and yes this was once mentioned in a recent live stream.
    https://www.twitch.tv/videos/239424880.
    "Clerics OP in this warfront"
    "They destroy me"
    "They one-shot me all day"

    Either exaggeration or lies.
    Cielune@Faeblight | Ikamuni@Faeblight | Zeruiah@Faeblight | Lucifuga@Faeblight | Lugina@Faeblight

    Originally from Seastone.

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