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Thread: Returning Cleric

  1. #16
    Ascendant Zehne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystifal View Post
    druid: no sense, no dps, no hybridization,NEEDS TOTAL REWORK - AGAIN -
    No cleave/aoe Dps, bad disconnect/target swapping buuuuuuuuut
    Excellent ST dps. It is well above shaman in pure ST performance (but there are only a few fights where the downsides do not exist)

    Also there can be only one druid in raid since stacks of Force are consumed by any cleric, not that there is ever more than 1 in a raid atm.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystifal View Post
    inqui: quite good dps (exp. burst) and mobility, quite poor target switching
    It's mobility is alot less than it used to be, now if you are moving you are likely to take a huge dps loss during 'spam'. In previous expansions you could do ~~100% or 90% of stationary dps while moving, now it's significantly less. Although SH does help mitigate this, BoR/BoJ is still a hit to dps since you can't cast it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystifal View Post
    oracle: only needed in combination with warden
    It's not needed for warden, totally optional. Just use Sent/puri for warden offsouls. However it is 'needed' for several specs if min/maxxing for it's 10% sp talents.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystifal View Post
    runeshaper: no sense, low dps, no mobility, no advantages in using it
    It actually has pretty decent mobility. In fact the majority of the time you'll have nothing but instant casts. Besides lower dps and no cleave/aoe it's downside is that it relies on procs and that can irritate some people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andracleric View Post
    The warden is OK but other classes do a bit better in raid heals now.
    Warden is not an easy spec to play compared to most others(at least to play it to it's highest output) but min/maxxed Warden's healing capability exceeds that of other classes and has some particularly good utility/heal mechanics when compared to other raid healers.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zehne View Post
    "It is well above shaman in pure ST performance...."
    Performance includes much more than DPS. The functionality is overall terrible in majority of scenarios. In PvP they have been almost non existent for over 6 months. In PvE they have come in dead last. They are the worse investment at this time. Healing is overall a joke. Everyone can do it. Warden is replaceable and other classes healing souls function better and play much easier in PvP.

    Best overall performance is Rogue and Primalist both in PvE and PvP. These are the best investments any new or returning player should make. What Trion should do is put a big fat stop sign on the cleric class "warning" players overall performance is terrible and plays/functions horribly so we don't have to keep telling them to not make the mistake of investing in the worse class.

    Most people who defend this class or still play cleric have been conformed to a certain paradigm that is unrecognizable to players who have played other classes especially rogue or primalist. Basically those left "defending cleric" are outliers when you consider the mentality of the total Rift population.

    Trion use to send classes to the bottom so at least all classes would enjoy being on top for some time both in PvP and PvE. Even that was just TOO much work for them so cleric became the class they focused on keeping in the bottom in mostly every scenario when compared to other classes. What they do to cleric is say it is okay for you to shine for about a month or so per year in one area but not both unlike rogue and primalist who shine in both PvE and PvP for majority of two expansions.

    You would think it was a lot less work for them to do that but in reality they spent more time making sure cleric was worse class in PvP and PvE than making it balanced with other classes in performance. This mentality now exist among majority of other players because of the long going neglect.

    Cleric should be the worse class in the game when you ask rogues or primalist in terms of DPS and Support. Clerics should be the best in healing put not in PvP if you ask other classes. Cleric should be the lowest performer overall. Bards hate oracle so oracle was abandoned back in NT as being competitive etc.

    This is why you see a massive push from devs to cripple cleric performance when they actually become viable in PvP or PvE. You will even see it happen on PTS before it even goes live so not to upset the other players of other classes. Even though we tell devs rogue and primalist is overperforming they get a pass. Not the same for cleric. There is an outcry from every other class from evey direction possible to keep them at the bottom even mages feel they should be best support, and healers and cleric should be only good at tanking but not in PvP.

    If they happen to be competitive in a few more scenarios it is very short lived or comes toward the end of an expansion where everyone takes a break or overperforms. This is defined as justice to the current clerics and they eat it up but it is actually a psychological trick.

    If the developers actually make cleric OP toward the end of this expansion to make it seem like all the time you spent crippled payed off current clerics and the population will be mostly be happy with that, except mostly rogues and primalist. They have occupied the top for most the expansion in both PvP and PvE and cleric gets to be OP for the very last month when everyone is on break and usually just in a couple more raid bosses or PvE scenarios but not PVP. This is what happened when they did druid, and Defiler remake back NT. They simply were useless in PvP but drufiler was OP in that one or two extra bosses in CoA which only a handful of clerics experienced. You can compare the 1 button playstyle of mostly every other class remake vs. cleric defiler and druid at the time for reference.

    When players come back however, they expect the same class, cleric, to be at the bottom and the devs cave to their every whim to get them in that position. Basically "what they said jokingly" to cleric community before the expansion was not a joke.

    This is a subjective view from a player who participated in more than just raiding. If your intention is just to play dress up and do RP or your intention for playing Rift is just to build dimensions then cleric is perfectly fine for you. If you like to only tank then cleric does well in PvE but not PvP, it is the same with healing, other classes are better healers and tanks in PvP.

    When talking to legit unbias top players they would tell you if you are okay with cleric being worse in a, b, c, d, e, f....z then it is okay for you to play cleric. If not play rogue or primalist. All of this would not have matter if Trion made it easier instead of harder to play more than one class. This was how vanilla Rift was. I had all classes in top pvp gear and when one performed bad I would just use the OP class. If this was the case today warfronts would just be a bunch of rogues and primalist vs. rogues and primalist with a scatter of a few other classes in the mix but because of more class locking added overtime you just have to limit your play to what you excel at and it is usually just tanking in PvE raids. That is all.
    Last edited by Aedynn; 09-29-2017 at 01:32 AM.

  3. #18
    Ascendant Zehne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aedynn View Post
    Performance includes much more than DPS. The functionality is overall terrible in majority of scenarios.
    I didn't say anything to the contrary. I believe that what I said was that instead of having absolutely terrible dps Druid has situational dps (of which it can actually be ahead of the current top builds).

    As for the rest. I'm not going to say cleric is top, but play the right roles on the right fights and you can definitely perform to a higher level. Most clerics I see only play one or two specs regularly enough to actually perform at an avg level with them.

    So since cleric doesn't actually have one spec that performs exceptionally in all areas they tend to fall behind.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aedynn View Post

    Most people who defend this class or still play cleric have been conformed to a certain paradigm that is unrecognizable to players who have played other classes especially rogue or primalist. Basically those left "defending cleric" are outliers when you consider the mentality of the total Rift population.

    Trion use to send classes to the bottom so at least all classes would enjoy being on top for some time both in PvP and PvE. Even that was just TOO much work for them so cleric became the class they focused on keeping in the bottom in mostly every scenario when compared to other classes. What they do to cleric is say it is okay for you to shine for about a month or so per year in one area but not both unlike rogue and primalist who shine in both PvE and PvP for majority of two expansions.

    You would think it was a lot less work for them to do that but in reality they spent more time making sure cleric was worse class in PvP and PvE than making it balanced with other classes in performance. This mentality now exist among majority of other players because of the long going neglect.

    Cleric should be the worse class in the game when you ask rogues or primalist in terms of DPS and Support. Clerics should be the best in healing put not in PvP if you ask other classes. Cleric should be the lowest performer overall. Bards hate oracle so oracle was abandoned back in NT as being competitive etc.
    As one who plays most classes and my main being cleric, this is rather humorous.

    Warriors are the only class with any room to complain right now with a single viable dps spec that is a borefest to play. (Tempest plays like...BOOM........yawn.......boom....yawn....BOOM )

    Tanking as a cleric is fun and easy. Plenty of tools to get the job done and the threat output makes primalists cry.
    DPS as a cleric is easy to play and competitive.
    Support falls short but who cares. At least Oracle is better off than Beastmaster and fits well with some nifty hybrid specs.
    Cleric healing is fine. Puri and Warden have their places and Sentinel is 5 man healing ez mode even at 'just hit 70' gear levels.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaelani View Post
    I'm guessing you went with Legendary Perseverance, rather than Legendary Sanction Heretic.
    I like 5 RS (Inscribe Fate) and 10 Cabalist (Shadow's Touch) as off souls.

    Four DoTs (Scourge, Inscribe Fate, Seal of Pain, and Sanction Heretic) every 15 seconds, followed by the usual Inq rotations. See if that helps.
    Thanks, that improved it by 80k or so, but still 80kish behind shaman (using Eruption of Life).

    I am getting 700k with inquis (SH & Fervent legendaries), 740 with old shammy (no EoL), 780 with new shammy.

  6. #21
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    Here is another theory of why they did this to cleric. Have fun.

    Cleric is not viewed as just some random letters which it should be. I am talking about nomenclature and meaning.They are defining cleric as some sort of priest when it should mean "anefklasjdfj" which is the correct way to consider classes so not to cause a bias or favoritism from early bad history. Just my opinion.
    Last edited by Flashmemory; 10-01-2017 at 06:58 AM.

  7. #22
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    Default Cleric

    Quote Originally Posted by Flashmemory View Post
    Here is another theory of why they did this to cleric. Have fun.

    Cleric is not viewed as just some random letters which it should be. I am talking about nomenclature and meaning.They are defining cleric as some sort of priest when it should mean "anefklasjdfj" which is the correct way to consider classes so not to cause a bias or favoritism from early bad history. Just my opinion.
    No flame..but I literally have no idea the point you were trying to convey here. It could just be me. lol

    @Aedynn: It seems that you have a focus on PVP. If this is the case then I agree with a good portion of what your stating.

    PVE on the other hand is a different story. I see so many people claiming Cleric DPS/Heals are subpar to all other classes and that we are only good for tanking. This is false. Yes, Cleric has the best tanking soul in the game, bar none. We dont lack in other departments though. The problem is lack of variety. We do have an incredible amount of useless souls to throw 61 points into. We are limited to pretty much: Justicar, Sham, Inq, Warden.

    If you spend the time to learn the rotations, then you will perform just fine. People see Prim/Rouge's hitting 1.5m+ and think "Oh every other class is a waste of time if you cant hit those numbers!" which is also false. I consistently hit 850k-900k on Sham. Im in TD gear with pre-eternal stage wep.

    As for heals, I challenge ANY class to out heal an experienced Warden. When I say this, Im not referring to HPS parses. In a raid, your healer has to be able to adapt to any situation. This includes more than just the script of the raid. Fresh raiders, pugs, people not paying attention, lag etc etc. Ive played damn near every heal soul in the game and have found that once mastered, Warden is hands down the most diverse. "But Warden ST is terrible!". You dont need ST heals when u can pop PoR every 30 seconds and 100% heal every member of the raid instantly.

    Tanking: Its busted in half. The only thing that a Justicar wants is more mobility. But with the ability to solo tank with no dedicated healer, TDez (assuming you have a raid that follows the script and doesnt stand in crap) alone speaks to the Godliness of Justi. With no healer, I hit 60k-70k HPS with my build without sacrificing and durability. Thats more than enough to keep a group up in anything that is TDez or lower with out a dedicated healer.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avisn View Post
    No flame..but I literally have no idea the point you were trying to convey here. It could just be me. lol

    On subconscious level a name given to a class can mean more than just a player playing a class because of association of the word.

    What pops into your head when you try to describe a rogue?

    A dev may say someone who breaks the rules. That can influence their development of a class. Subconsciously, they can make rogue OP because they are suppose to break the rules.
    However, another dev may think a rogue is a criminal, they may think they belong in a jail and make them completely countered in all directions so they don't go out of line making them unable to have a good player experience.

    Same thing can happen to cleric. Say the person just doesn't believe that clerics should exist because they don't believe in their views in real life. Then clerics don't exist. Or they may think that cleric should be healers and only make them able to heal. Etc. All, of these things are done at a very subconscious level without them actually realizing what they are doing.

    "An objective perspective is one that is not influenced by emotions, opinions, or personal feelings - it is a perspective based in fact, in things quantifiable and measurable. A subjective perspective is one open to greater interpretation based on personal feeling, emotion, aesthetics, etc."

    The objective developer is the most prized developer when it comes to balancing classes. Hence, they won't put any meaning to the word rogue, or warrior or cleric or primalist. They would just look at them all as players just trying to have a fair and good time. It is almost impossible to be completely objective but it is possible to be enough that everyone can enjoy their game.
    Last edited by Flashmemory; 10-01-2017 at 04:49 PM.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avisn View Post
    No flame..but I literally have no idea the point you were trying to convey here. It could just be me. lol
    .
    He is basically saying that after all this time, clerics are still viewed as a healer as opposed to just a congruent class. So the design of other features are secondary because they 'ought' to be just healers.

    Same ol song and dance.

  10. #25
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    God forbid the classes have an identity.

  11. #26
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    Default I like my cleric - it uses magic stuff- but I agree with Flashmemory here

    I know my cleric doesn't pack the same punch as Rogue and Primi anymore. I tend to think of my Defiant cleric as more of a scientific moon worshipper lol. Otherwise she would be a Guardian. But clerics are a lot more than healers- as are mages. Thing is- it doesn't matter what identity it has- it should be balanced like abcxyz using melee or ranged, even as 123456 is balanced using melee or ranged. Maybe the magic use is difficult to balance- I have no idea. But I am tracking on what Flashmemory is saying. I like magic users. I do not like arrows, or pets. I like wands. I like staves. They make me want to be a cleric or mage.

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