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Thread: Recently returned to RIFT, is Cleric DPS acceptable for raiding?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by FateStayNight View Post
    Clerics don't really have scaling issue.
    Using the existing top end parse on Beruhast which is basically no mechanic and just tank and spank fight.

    The top cleric did 170k dps pure single target. (Top end gear with max eternal weapon lv7)

    The top warrior did 172k dps pure single target (Top end gear with max eternal weapon lv7)

    The top rogue did 180k dps pure single target (Top end gear with max eternal weapon lv7)

    The top mage did 169k dps pure single target (top end gear with the 2nd highest eternal weapon lv6)

    The top primalist (after nerf) did 226k dps pure single target (Top end geat with max eternal weapon lv7).

    Using cleric as base line
    Cleric: 170k (100%)
    Warrior: 172k (101%)
    Mage: 169k (99.4%) (this is with only eternal weapon 6)
    Rogue: 180k (105%)
    Primalist 226k (133%)

    Excluding mage since it's unfair as the said mage only has eternal 6

    So at top level play/gear in pure single target output potential.

    Clerics is only 1% behind warrior, and 5% behind rogue so the pure single target of all 4 original callings are actually closer than others making it out to be, all within ~5% (which is actually quite amazing considering all the wacky legendary abilities are in the mix).

    Clearly, primalist is 33% ahead of cleric (and 25% ahead of the #2 dps calling) which is clearly an outlier.

    So I wouldn't blame on scaling just yet, if anything, Inquisitor has very good scaling with gear judging by how much more dps Inquisitor has gained over the past 2 months.

    And remember this coming Wednesday Keyens already said cleric eternal weapon proc is receiving a significant buff which will greatly increase its uptime, and in tank and spank fights like Beruhast it wouldn't be hard to achieve 100% uptime which will inevitably help cleric dps significantly.

    I am not saying you are wrong, it's just that according to actual parses clerics are far from weak, and it also does not support the theory of "clerics scaling is broken compare to martial class callings" as all 4 classes other than primalist are all extremely close especially when cleric eternal weapon isn't even working properly currently.
    There is a scaling problem. They will attempt to use a proc to hide the problem because it is the best solution at the time. They could also just put spell crit as well as spell power on gear. The problem will still exist and the itemization team will be forever responsible to make sure the problem doesn't resurface again which it will since procs change over time.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by FateStayNight View Post
    I cannot control player skills so I look at current top players in each calling on PT.
    If anything it just shows the skill ceiling between callings are not the same.
    It is commonly known that in order to get rid of outliers you cut out a portion of the top and the bottom and deal with portions in the middle. If you would consider everyone then you have to factor in a person who is just doing autoattack damage as well. Like I have mentioned if you were to deal with just the base stats and imagine you have tier 3 or even 4 gear the scaling issue would present itself.)

    In laymans terms the average dps of the classes in comparison to the average dps of the players regardless of what class they play(if you use a big enough sample you can go as far as to even eliminate the game itself and consider it the average player. Like what a brand new player would eventually experience over time as they play their main.)

    What you consider "skill ceiling" has very little to do with skill, it has to do with functionality and playability which just comes back to haunt the devs even more because then it doesn't become a numbers thing. It become an actual rework of the mechanics of the souls which is far more difficult for engineers than just simply adding in a unique proc to fix a scaling problem momentarily. They will still have the same problems in other scenarios where the proc is not available to them for instance in PvP.
    Last edited by Flashmemory; 09-12-2017 at 08:39 AM.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by FateStayNight View Post
    Clerics don't really have scaling issue.
    Using the existing top end parse on Beruhast which is basically no mechanic and just tank and spank fight.
    Top end parse for this fight on PT is held by Unicef and they did not use a cleric dps. Stop being wrong. In order to bring this fight down to the quickest kill you may just stack primalist going all the way down the class line until cleric is your only option left. If you were to actually get the best players in this way the fight will be reduced to about 45secs, maybe even less. This means if the fight lasted just a little bit longer or less the change in DPS placement would be so dramatic that it would be thrown away. You may have some classes performing terrible from scenario to scenario and a changing top end. Basically you can even have Primalist look balanced.

    Why are you wrong? Here is a really good example. Lets get all level 70s to attack a level 5 mob. The mob dies in 1 sec by each class. In your mind every class is balanced. This is why it is better to go for 3-5 min parses or the average time it takes to down the boss across the board. And it certainly is not 1 min. Also, this is why balance should not only be based on performance with all raid essential buffs but individually. In fact individual performance is the most important.

    What else are you neglecting? Let me see. Do clerics have 9 other companions strapped to them in every scenario possible that are offering the same damage increases and cast time reductions? No. In fact when you actually parse each class individually and together you will find that cleric is the most dependent on other classes to perform at its top end.

    Source: https://prancingturtle.com/Encounter...geDone/195986#

    What else are you doing wrong? Let us see. Well, you say that this fight is tank and spank fight and no mechanics? Why does that even matter? Is every single encounter like this? Does this encounter represent the majority of encounters in this game? No. So why are you using it as an example to say cleric is fine? The truth is that when you do introduce mechanics cleric is the MOST PARALYZED class in the game and fights with mechanics are the majority of fights in this game.

    Let me keep going because this is sort of fun. You say look at Bubbbles. Okay lets go ahead and see where bubbbles falls in the current top end raid. He is above every other cleric by a huge margin.

    Beligosh
    https://prancingturtle.com/Encounter...ageDone/196041
    He is bottom DPS

    CoF
    https://prancingturtle.com/Encounter...ageDone/196043
    Bottom DPS

    Melannon
    https://prancingturtle.com/Encounter...ageDone/196047
    Bottom DPS

    Tarjulia
    https://prancingturtle.com/Encounter...ageDone/196042
    Since you have been our worse dps you can be our second tank please and thanks, Bubbbles

    What does this prove? Well, hmm. When you have problem with completing a raid the obvious choice is to Kick and Replace the cleric. Heck even the best of the best can't compete!

    This has been the case for clerics every single raid introduced this expansion and many of the other ones prior to the expansion. Actually in this expansion the spread has been far worse. We are talking going up to 50%+.

    Now let us consider that Bubbles is the finest world Rift player. Where if it is possible to push 1 extra dps out of his class he will do it. Can you now imagine how the lesser clerics or average clerics perform?

    I apologize to Bubbbles if this is offensive. I had to prove a point. It would also help the entire Rift community if you would stand up to the current bias to your class. I feel they are using you so unfairly and I think you do realize it but actually don't care because the raid you are in is highly successful.

    We have many players who actually do not play to their classes strengths and actually only play Rift to do one thing. For instance, we can have a rogue who tanks and only tanks(because the idea of a tank rogue is so AWESOME) even though they are 30% ahead of cleric in an encounter but he refuses to play if he does not tank. Same with some clerics who rather heal or support but rogue ends up being best hybrid support and healer. Or we have a mage who is chloro and doesn't do anything else because he only enjoys playing chloro. So you get stuck with no cast time reduction that boost your dps. Not all guilds function like top end guilds and they will NEVER because we still have players who enjoy playing one role even if changing would greatly increase your raids success rate. That is how Rift really is for many of the other guilds.

    If you want to invest the most in your class and have the worse return then pick cleric or play another class.
    "i'm the best in my class but still worse than the rest, even though they invested way way less."
    Last edited by Aedynn; 09-12-2017 at 01:35 PM.

  4. #34
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    tl;dr
    anyways

    I really don't see it sorry sis.

    I see strong primalist lol and maybe rogue and skiddie mage here and there then I see meh everything else.

    Stop being so wrong, if you call moving a step left/right and interrupt is not tank and spank, I don't know what is. Maybe target dummies has boss mechanic too because they stare at you.


    No idea why all the blahs on bosses that can abuse cleave or has frequent target switching.

    /sigh



    edit: also this thread was talking about potential dps output of a said class compare to the others, NOT whether or not Unicfefe has the biggest balls, please do not derail this thread anymore.
    Last edited by FateStayNight; 09-12-2017 at 01:09 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flashmemory View Post
    It is commonly known that in order to get rid of outliers you cut out a portion of the top and the bottom and deal with portions in the middle.
    Then you will have 2.5m inquisitor because you did exactly that, balance to middle of the pack and completely overpowers the guys that can properly play their class.
    Last edited by FateStayNight; 09-12-2017 at 12:41 PM.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by FateStayNight View Post
    Then you will have 2.5m inquisitor because you did exactly that, balance to middle of the pack and completely overpowers the guys that can properly play their class.
    Bubbbles played Inquistor:

    Beligosh - Spec: Inquistor - 5:53 min - 720654 DPS (BEST:Rogue Stihl 1250388 DPS, Last Bubbbles)
    Tarjulia - He played Tank or Off-Tank
    Council of Fate - Spec: Inquistor - 5:21 min - 781994 DPS (BEST:Rogue Railshot 1758670 DPS, Last Bubbbles)Malannon - Spec: Inquisitor - 5:42 min - 924096 DPS (BEST: Primalist Setsy 1223456 DPS, Last Bubbbles)



    @Aedynn - amazing work - i didnt look into the encounters. I think the clerics are death and we dont even note it. With the next raid and the inraise damage (+25% states each tier) we are out of buisness. Clerics make the raid weak, in DPS and HPS. It is hard to say because i play this class but is true.
    Last edited by Ora pro nobis; 09-12-2017 at 01:28 PM.
    be realistic let's try the impossible

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ora pro nobis View Post
    Bubbbles played Inquistor:

    Beligosh - Spec: Inquistor - 5:53 min - 720654 DPS (BEST:Rogue Stihl 1250388 DPS, Last Bubbbles)
    Tarjulia - He played Tank or Off-Tank
    Council of Fate - Spec: Inquistor - 5:21 min - 781994 DPS (BEST:Rogue Railshot 1758670 DPS, Last Bubbbles)Malannon - Spec: Inquisitor - 5:42 min - 924096 DPS (BEST: Primalist Setsy 1223456 DPS, Last Bubbbles)



    @Aedynn - amazing work - i didnt look into the encounters. I think the clerics are death and we dont even note it. With the next raid and the inraise damage (+25% states each tier) we are out of buisness. Clerics make the raid weak, in DPS and HPS. It is hard to say because i play this class but is true.
    That is because Inquisitor doesn't cleave...

    Beligosh: massive cleave fight.

    Tarjulia: Multi-target with a lot of movements, and Inquisitor do have hardcasting and stationary channeling.

    Council: LoL more cleave.

    tl;dr An non-cleaving spec got out-cleaved by cleaving spec.

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    I make some screenshots about Nightblade cleave vs Defiler (payable) cleave and ask for a buff. Defiler is underrated. A Clerics in full T1 Gear makes 2/3 of the damage from a TD-Easy equited rogue. So Inquistor can be the better choise here.

    http://forums.riftgame.com/game-disc...p-request.html
    be realistic let's try the impossible

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    Quote Originally Posted by FateStayNight View Post
    Then you will have 2.5m inquisitor because you did exactly that, balance to middle of the pack and completely overpowers the guys that can properly play their class.
    No you will not. You will have a soul that is broken and needs to be rebalance closer to the player average regardless of what class it is. If you only include the TOP 10 you will only work with the top 1% and exclude the bottom 99%. Even Trion devs know this. That is why a lot of top end raiders are mad because they consider the fights they play much easier in this expansion. Trion sees that balancing around just the 1% is killing off the player base so decide to probably balance around the above average player. This is so basic. Mean, Medium, Mode, Range? These terms mean nothing to you?

  10. #40
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    Default Flashmemory- it is not just cleric balance or imbalance that is probematic

    In truth- there are numerous issues. I have stated I stopped playing because of communication issues and inconsistency. My main- a cleric- underperforms. Always. I have no desire to suffer the awful legendary grind with it. Most serious raiders left anyway- at least they did from my guild-so the top 1% you reference may have not been so 2 years or more ago. The plat sink of planar fragments and lack of pvp and many other things unresolved or taken a different direction is far more problematic than 1 percenters driving away players.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flashmemory View Post
    Gobble Gobble
    My point is, I don't want the game to become even more easier than it is, so ye, I don't feel the need to be buffed. I compare myself with other clerics, and when I do better than 90% of them, I feel good, I don't feel the necessity to compare with other classes. I'm still invited to raids, and I still feel useful. Clearly hardcore guilds may find clerics useless, but balance is so much more prominent in these guilds, as it's less dependent on skill (everyone's decent so they're pushing their class close to the max).

    Some people have different views on the game, yours is the injustice that clerics have been on the bottom for so long. Don't get me wrong, I would love to see proper changes myself, and I can see most patches that he's trying to bring Clerics up slowly (and not very well), but I'm realistic to the chances of a much better balance, and their available resources, so I don't torture myself over it. On the other hand you are, so it sounds like you need reroll or change game, as you're suffering too much, and it's never gonna change.
    Last edited by Refuge; 09-17-2017 at 04:10 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Refuge View Post
    On the other hand you are, so it sounds like you need reroll or change game, as you're suffering too much, and it's never gonna change.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Refuge View Post
    My point is, I don't want the game to become even more easier than it is, so ye, I don't feel the need to be buffed. I compare myself with other clerics, and when I do better than 90% of them, I feel good, I don't feel the necessity to compare with other classes. I'm still invited to raids, and I still feel useful. Clearly hardcore guilds may find clerics useless, but balance is so much more prominent in these guilds, as it's less dependent on skill (everyone's decent so they're pushing their class close to the max).

    Some people have different views on the game, yours is the injustice that clerics have been on the bottom for so long. Don't get me wrong, I would love to see proper changes myself, and I can see most patches that he's trying to bring Clerics up slowly (and not very well), but I'm realistic to the chances of a much better balance, and their available resources, so I don't torture myself over it. On the other hand you are, so it sounds like you need reroll or change game, as you're suffering too much, and it's never gonna change.
    You say the same thing mostly every cleric says. The difference is that if you actually look at the other players who don't play cleric, they would not stand for the same sort of treatment. The honest reality is, most of the clerics left keep finding reasons to deal with it. The ultimate and end game excuse... "it's just a game though, am I right?" May as well just say that. I am just bringing awareness to these facts. I said this was going to happen and because of fragments and class locking grind along with stacking RNG on top of RNG you notice Rift declined. Btw, I have been on vacation for awhile. I do go in vent to find out some things still.

    Btw, don't you consider yourself sort of a defeatist if you only compare yourself to select players and not the entire player base? This is how you can tell that you have been molded or the population of clerics have been molded to basically accept this reality.
    Last edited by Flashmemory; 09-17-2017 at 11:24 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flashmemory View Post
    ...they would not stand for the same sort of treatment. The honest reality is, most of the clerics left keep finding reasons to deal with it...
    I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. This is simply natural progression and migration of 'types of players'. Those who want to be the best of the best will switch to primalist or possibly other classes. Those who aren't too fussed stay. This could just as well happen with any class. Is this so objectionable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Flashmemory View Post
    Btw, don't you consider yourself sort of a defeatist if you only compare yourself to select players...
    You really are trying to find a way to patronise, aren't you! But I can't help feel you're scraping the barrel to do so.. It's only a defeatist attitude, if you're really bothered about it, but at the same time give up. Well guess what, I'm not bothered. You really seem to have an issue with people having a different view point to you, and because of that you're degrading in your talk. Well I can assure you with one thing, you will not able to degrade me, as much as you might want to try.

    And to even suggest that the likes of us are causing rift to decline is utterly laughable. It's an overwhelming force of complacency and mediocare expectations that keeps the game alive, haven't you realised that yet? After all, if you're still playing, you must be part of this force yourself..

    Finally, don't confuse mediocrity with unforgivable behaviour. Unforgivable would be half geared scrubs easily beating me on damage, but they don't. You actually have to know your class and be decent geared to beat the dps I do, and when that happens fair on them. And if those other classes had any knowledge of the game they would reply in kind "you're good for a cleric". They could say that same line for any class. The definition of unforgivable behaviour at the moment would be primalists.
    Last edited by Refuge; 09-18-2017 at 11:33 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Refuge View Post
    I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. This is simply natural progression and migration of 'types of players'.
    Quote Originally Posted by Refuge View Post
    ......The definition of unforgivable behaviour at the moment would be primalists.

    With having more comformist personalities popping up I would expect in a few months many will totally agree with the state of primalist or "the reroll or leave" doctrine they have grown to live by.

    Here is what you don't get and, personally, this is a lesson that all people need to practice. The migration is happening because of balance in both PvP and PvE. Balance does not ONLY include DPS. Players of all types of games would not boil it down to just DPS.

    For instance, if I had a vendetta in place for your class. I can absolutely make it play horribly outside of just standing still and being melee. I can just add more dots that don't benefit off procs for example. Or find ways to cripple your class in other ways so they just perform horribly outside of a couple instance. I can make you perform terribly in 1 billion+ scenarios and you would be happy with being okay in 2 because that is all your subjective mind chooses to comprehend.

    I will make it pretty simple for everyone to understand. I will boil it down to capitalism because without money you can't run a game or pay wages. So money talks.

    Here is how I see what is happening at Trion.

    Senior Dev: I want more people who play my game to invest in the game.
    Underling: Let's give everyone a paying class that is so OP and must have.
    Senior Dev: After reviewing results, I see that more people have actually invested in the game. They are content. But the bottom margins show a different story.

    What really is happening however is this :

    Let us say there are 100 players. 15% of 100 player are paying into the system. What Trion senior dev wants to do is make it so that 100% of 100 players pays into their system. They introduce this PTW class and they see they are getting close to that 100%. But, because they designed a class locking system with grind, stacking RNG, and plat sinks they can't totally get there. They made an incredible design failure in more than 1 way which is preventing them from achieving their goal which is actually the wrong goal to begin with.

    They have people like yourself who are die hard fans. And these are the ones left playing with many who don't contribute still playing but accepting any reality the devs throw at them. The Devs will probably see that of the 100 players now 50% have gave them profits. 50/100 players are now contributing in someway.Do you to understand? I hope so. In their eyes they have accomplished so much. 50% now contributing instead of 15%. Time for a party!


    Here is what they should ultimately aim for and how the game should have been and how MMOs should always be unless it is run in your basement or something. What the Senior dev should really aim for is wanting to grow that 15% of players. They should want 15% of 1000. That is 150 players contributing. 15% of 10000 .. that 1500 etc. In this goal they effectively grew their margin of profit much more with 850/8500 players becoming potential contributors. You leave so much room for growth and profit margin increase if you look at it this way.

    In your initial goal you sacrifice losing tons of potential profit. This is not a success or reason to throw a party at all!

    What are the real consequences we can see from this approach. You end up with 1 real class developer instead of 4, constant regurgitation of content, many delays in content releases as well with the cutting out of content completely and most importantly the devs changing the rules on the fly to fit their personal agenda.

    The effect of this is felt not only by the player but also by the company and in the end if cutting out the pay of senior or friendly employees generates more profit than 100% players contributions they would do just that. This is not a butterfly effect scenario. It is just basic logic in its most simplistic form. That is my biggest problem. You may say this is over reaching, but balancing classes in as many scenarios as possible is the ultimate key to having an expanding and healthy player base.

    Trion absolutely loves those types of conformist players, as it can reflect what they think is the normal type of player overall. However, they should know they built a game so complex in its soul system and features that eventually majority of players become complex beings as well and they are not so conformist as they really think. Being a conformist, and defeatist, is not healthy in the long run for this type of game.

    Telling players to go play another game cuts profits and jeopardizes the life of employees as well. I have never seen a company and players ever tell their own players to do this until recently unless out of frustration. I will never change myself to be like that. You can't have that sort of mentality in this sort of game because it is unhealthy. That is my opinion because it is also true that ignorance is bliss as well.
    Last edited by Flashmemory; 09-20-2017 at 03:45 PM.

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