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Thread: Clerics need to be worked on

  1. #1
    Soulwalker
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    Default Clerics need to be worked on

    Is there an ETA on clerics being brought up to where the other classes are? DPS- and healing-wise

  2. #2
    Ascendant ThatTomGuy's Avatar
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    Dps yes, but if you are behind on healing, you are doing it wrong

  3. #3
    Soulwalker
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    Default .

    Well, right now rogues and warriors are reigning champs because of the aoe shields they have.

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    Ascendant Gilgad's Avatar
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    Cleric DPS are fine.

    Cleric heals are "fine" but not the most wanted.

  5. #5
    Soulwalker
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    Fine? Maybe if you have your eternal, but still watching other classes without it nipping at your heels.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slash0998 View Post
    Fine? Maybe if you have your eternal, but still watching other classes without it nipping at your heels.
    Clerics are still the lowest parsing class, but not by a wide margin. If you're losing to players with noticeably worse stats, you probably just need to work on your rotation.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by slash0998 View Post
    Fine? Maybe if you have your eternal, but still watching other classes without it nipping at your heels.
    They are wrong. It just depends which OP class they have. You can be something between 10% to 15% lower at relatively even gear depending which class. And who know at the highest gear score.. I haven't seen clerics pull 800K+ on priest videos yet. I have some of the best rogues and primalist and they still do that with wicket or dungeon tier eternal. The warriors are slightly behind but not many play the OP spec for melee so they sit as tempest and still are very competitive with the range of inquisitor.

    Pyro is slightly ahead in raid because they are not balance like Inq on dummy who is balance after their raid buff not before. So when in raid a Pyro will benefit more from having an inq than another class who doesn't provide the buff. It just goes on and on.. I won't go into..

    Harb is more ahead depending if there is a free source of damage near the target. And you have the sins and OP primalist who are ahead of those. In terms of mechanically challenging.. Well.. it is more or less how well you can manage mechanics and know the fight.

    For instance on the dragon. First boss TD he flies into the air so fast when there is dps like primalist and rogue or tempest burst around. So you may just forgo your suppose to be best opener to deliver something that is quick and bursty and less dps overall. Unfortunately that is what really is the problem. Too many classes are designed with some of the derpiest mechanics and cleric is designed a different way-backloaded damage. They all are close with caster class on the trail and cleric farthest behind. Pyro can do well too but I don't see much pyro hitting over 800K+.

    When fights are relatively fast then those other mechanically superior classes usually win out. If you parse cleric and another class for 1 hour plus you will see really the difference looks small though which is actually huge in reality because in many cases they have to alter their rotations around to fit the other classes and things dying so fast. In fact the cleric class doesn't even have a standard rotation anymore if you play it well. You play blocks and different blocks for different types of raids which means you just have more RNG with dps over other classes. You are punished or rewarded for knowing more or less about what other players are capable of. It is not your skill only to consider. With that sort of dps difference you can probably 9 man IROTP from those classes.

    With that in mind you are still good enough to complete the end game content. You just have better options with tanking atm and basically not being able to carry anywhere else. The support is also horrible.
    Last edited by Aedynn; 06-04-2017 at 11:54 PM.

  8. #8
    Ascendant Gilgad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aedynn View Post
    They are wrong. It just depends which OP class they have. You can be something between 10% to 15% lower at relatively even gear depending which class. And who know at the highest gear score.. I haven't seen clerics pull 800K+ on priest videos yet. I have some of the best rogues and primalist and they still do that with wicket or dungeon tier eternal. The warriors are slightly behind but not many play the OP spec for melee so they sit as tempest and still are very competitive with the range of inquisitor.

    Pyro is slightly ahead in raid because they are not balance like Inq on dummy who is balance after their raid buff not before. So when in raid a Pyro will benefit more from having an inq than another class who doesn't provide the buff. It just goes on and on.. I won't go into..

    Harb is more ahead depending if there is a free source of damage near the target. And you have the sins and OP primalist who are ahead of those. In terms of mechanically challenging.. Well.. it is more or less how well you can manage mechanics and know the fight.

    For instance on the dragon. First boss TD he flies into the air so fast when there is dps like primalist and rogue or tempest burst around. So you may just forgo your suppose to be best opener to deliver something that is quick and bursty and less dps overall. Unfortunately that is what really is the problem. Too many classes are designed with some of the derpiest mechanics and cleric is designed a different way-backloaded damage. They all are close with caster class on the trail and cleric farthest behind. Pyro can do well too but I don't see much pyro hitting over 800K+.

    When fights are relatively fast then those other mechanically superior classes usually win out. If you parse cleric and another class for 1 hour plus you will see really the difference looks small though which is actually huge in reality because in many cases they have to alter their rotations around to fit the other classes and things dying so fast. In fact the cleric class doesn't even have a standard rotation anymore if you play it well. You play blocks and different blocks for different types of raids which means you just have more RNG with dps over other classes. You are punished or rewarded for knowing more or less about what other players are capable of. It is not your skill only to consider. With that sort of dps difference you can probably 9 man IROTP from those classes.

    With that in mind you are still good enough to complete the end game content. You just have better options with tanking atm and basically not being able to carry anywhere else. The support is also horrible.
    Clerics warriors primalists and mages are all within 10% of each other, above or below. This is more then acceptable for rift.

    Rogues are currently over 10%, more like 20-30%.

    Any cleric who can't match the other classes outside rogues are just well, frankly, ****.
    Last edited by Gilgad; 06-05-2017 at 12:56 AM.

  9. #9
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    Cleric: This seems wrong?
    Primalist: What?
    Cleric: Look at the DPS?
    Primalist: What about it?
    Cleric: You did 20 % more DPS in this 2min. fight?
    Primalist: So?
    Cleric: That is imbalanced?
    Primalist: No..
    Cleric: What do you mean no?
    Primalist: Let me show you. Let us go parse for 1 HOUR straight on the dummy.
    Cleric: Why?
    Prlmalist: To show you I am only 10% ahead not 20%.
    Cleric: What fights are 1 hour long?
    Primalist: ?????
    Cleric: QFT
    Last edited by Aedynn; 06-05-2017 at 01:13 AM.

  10. #10
    Ascendant Gilgad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aedynn View Post
    Cleric: This seems wrong?
    Primalist: What?
    Cleric: Look at the DPS?
    Primalist: What about it?
    Cleric: You did 20 % more DPS in this 2min. fight?
    Primalist: So?
    Cleric: That is imbalanced?
    Primalist: No..
    Cleric: What do you mean no?
    Primalist: Let me show you. Let us go parse for 1 HOUR straight on the dummy.
    Cleric: Why?
    Prlmalist: To show you I am only 10% ahead not 20%.
    Cleric: What fights are 1 hour long?
    Primalist: ?????
    Cleric: QFT
    Primalist got nerfed team.

  11. #11
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    This is actually inferior to the way they should balance the game. With the dps so high it is actually easier to get within a lower percentage range.

    I would do something like balance Melee and Range differently now that PvP is sort of dead.

    Melee 10% ahead of Range was actually where the whole thing started but as you can see that wouldn't be fair to all classes. PvP would require some balancing as a result such as a flat range damage reduction or specific damage reduction on talents. This means that range and melee are balanced within as close to possible and no more than 5%.


    How it could be since they put the primalist soul in and how high dps is reaching now is something like :

    Range DPS
    Cleric and Mage are 5% ahead of Rogue and Warrior. Primalist is 2.5% ahead of Rogue and Warrior. Dead center. So they are worse than 2 and better than 2 but not by much.

    Melee DPS
    Warrior and Rogue are 5% ahead of Cleric and Mage. Primalist is 2.5% ahead of Cleric and Mage.Again. Dead center. So they are worse than 2 and better than 2 but not by much.

    These were they type of devs I remember from 2011-2012.

    I actually think it would be even easier if DPS was in the 10s of millions. You would even notice and not notice the difference to care about it..
    Last edited by Flashmemory; 06-05-2017 at 02:29 AM.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jkay View Post
    Clerics are still the lowest parsing class, but not by a wide margin. If you're losing to players with noticeably worse stats, you probably just need to work on your rotation.
    Open up fragment boxes and you will see dex/AP bis coming up in a factor of 15 to 1 or more over wis/Sp. For every lottery ticket you buy the rogue/primalist purchases 15! and on AP its like 50! on some fragments. Thats 14 more free rolls at least for rogues. Secondly, in almost the same fragments and with eternal weapon to RoTP level with almost the same gear score I am seeing a 600K cleric will be out dps'ed by 200K from rogue/warrior. And a 700k+ cleric which is rare since the prior mentioned problem and being balanced lower than other classes will be competing with close to if not over 1 million damage of other classes.

    This is an absolutely wide and apparent margin. Somewhere at 10% at lowest to 30% plus. When 4.1 was released those classes that were 40% ahead of the cleric and caused Keyens to revert his balancing were not even perfected. So we are seeing this now.. If cleric was not reverted you would have seen over 60% difference in DPS normalization. So you can imagine how much influence is being pushed to kill off the class in general. That is why I tell people not to play it. I just can't keep up with the sheer amount of returning threads and we still have white knights and people who ask for guides when the only guide they need is the guide that says role another class. If you are going to invest any time in any character it should be the one the devs favor. Right now I am seeing rogue and primalist.. Cleric being the least favored.. although live streams may actually give you some sense of false hope... like when Brasse said cleric is the most balanced class for instance. That actually gave me some spec of hope that they were going to actually balance them correctly but it turns out they ended up 40% behind in first push of 4.1 and it was delayed a month as well.

    "The last year has been extraordinarily busy, seeing the release of our Nightmare Tide expansion and your first visit to the Plane of Water. We released new Souls that give every Calling has access to every role, fulfilling our mission of “bring the player, not the class,” and added a new Profession with Dream Weaving. The year didn’t go by without adding plenty for everyone to experience, whether it was new dungeons, soul quests, open-world content like Tyrant’s Throne, or a variety of new raiding challenges. We also expanded ways for you to challenge one another with a new Warfront, Conquest map, and the ability to create personal arenas in your Dimensions."

    They abandoned it for PoA.
    Last edited by Aedynn; 06-12-2017 at 09:47 AM.

  13. #13
    Telaran
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    Just to add something to the discussion:

    Inquisitor doesn't seem like it's in a terrible place, neither does Shaman. Both these specs overall needs damage buffs to be on par with other classes but relatively speaking it doesn't seem horrible.

    I'm a returning player (been back for a month now) and what the heck did they do to Defiler loI. get that they wanted to kill off anything that makes classes unique (which I don't agree with, but their design choice I guess) so defiler had to go but seriously, Defiler feels like a subpar DPS class now, and so is Runeshaper. I was wondering why I never saw any clerics in those specs until I went and parsed them myself...and now I know.

    What is the point of having different souls if they all just do the same thing? You're always just going to choose the one that does it best if they aren't fundamentally different in some way (hence all clerics only playing Inq and Shaman). It'd be different if these specs had interesting strengths and weaknesses, (like if one had really good 2 target damage or lossless cleave while trading off some dps), but as far as I can see they just don't even compare to Inq or Shaman.


    On the healing side, tank healing so far is a joke in this expansion, but man does purifier feel bad (at least imo) due to high mana costs and the worst mana regeneration mechanic of all the healing souls. Warden feels good still, not sure about how it stacks up compared to other raid healers. (And sent still feels good in PvP).

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vetheax View Post
    I'm a returning player (been back for a month now) and what the heck did they do to Defiler loI. get that they wanted to kill off anything that makes classes unique (which I don't agree with, but their design choice I guess) so defiler had to go but seriously, Defiler feels like a subpar DPS class now, and so is Runeshaper. I was wondering why I never saw any clerics in those specs until I went and parsed them myself...and now I know.

    What is the point of having different souls if they all just do the same thing? You're always just going to choose the one that does it best if they aren't fundamentally different in some way (hence all clerics only playing Inq and Shaman). It'd be different if these specs had interesting strengths and weaknesses, (like if one had really good 2 target damage or lossless cleave while trading off some dps), but as far as I can see they just don't even compare to Inq or Shaman.
    Runeshaper actually have great damage, but it takes time to ramp up. It's not great bursting like Inq and Shaman are, but it's stable and you can get high. The problem is that it's a fair bit of things to keep track off, as you change between OGCD period with Runes and instant cast abilties when Doom is up or down.

    Personally I use Cabalist a lot as well. It pulls bigger numbers than either of the roles when you combat groups and the utility is great for PvP among others, but also for a few situations to weaken enemies due to AoE purge. I can't speak regarding Defiler, since I never tried it.

    Regarding the healers, then I do agree Puri seems left out, but maybe this changes with normal mode TD, but unlikely. I've heard AoE healing do just fine in iRotP raid. Warden and Sentinel are both great. I use Warden most of the time, since it has a lot of freedom when moving around, but effectively you need to keep track of hot heals.
    The Pack - Sanzor - Cleric
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  15. #15
    Soulwalker
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    Default Cleric Dps is fine... atm

    the biggest problems i can see for the future are how clerics %dmg legendaries and the eternal weapon proc work.

    The legendaries "Bolt of Light" and "Inscribe Fate" only buff %healing on the cleric, the %dmg part is a debuff on ur target which means the more often u r forced to switch targets the more it cripples ur Dps especialy "Inscribe Fate" with itīs 8sec cd isnīt always ready when u need it.

    The eternal weapon proc on the other hand has compared to other classes the lowest uptime because itīs limited by the 3min cd for manapots/-tonics. atm itīs maybe not that obvious but the further u upgrade the weapon and the larger that proc gets the more hurtful that compared low uptime will be.
    Last edited by Crysaris; 06-13-2017 at 04:18 PM.

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