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Thread: Inquisitor Suggestions

  1. #1
    Shadowlander
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    Default Inquisitor Suggestions

    So, there's a disappointing number of negative, unproductive, and unspecific posts polluting the forums regarding the 4.1 balance changes.
    Instead, I'd like to use facts and numbers!

    The suggestion I would like to make involves a few changes to the mechanics of Legendary Radical Coalescence, but we should probably start with an illustration of where Inquisitor is actually standing, which you can see here.

    Sorry there aren't any mages or rogues in the picture, but this should give you an idea where similarly geared clerics, primalists, and warriors stand. As you can see, cleric is doing almost exactly 80% of the damage of warriors.
    This is ability breakdown for interested parties: http://i.imgur.com/ORNVeqr.jpg

    Legendary Radical Coalescence: "Allows Inquisitor channeled abilities to...tick twice as often for 10s. Also passively increases the damage of your damage over time abilities and bolts by 35%."

    Three spells haven't gotten any love since SFP release:
    • Nysyr's Rebuke - Is a dps loss unless it's used within Radical Coalescence.
    • Harsh Discipline - Is a dps loss even WITHIN Radical Coalescence.
    • Soul Stream - Only useful for healing the tank when your healer dies.

    To fix this, Nysyr's Rebuke and Harsh Discipline should be added to the abilities boosted by Radical Coalescence. Also, consider changing "Inquisitor channeled abilities" to "all channeled abilities" to make Soul Stream useful as a damaging ability.
    This alone isn't enough to completely fix the 20% margin, so the actual percent value may need to be adjusted as well.

    To illustrate the effects of the changes, here is a typical inquisitor parse utilizing all abilities: http://i.imgur.com/oxiNW36.jpg

    You can see the effects as a table here if you're not scared of numbers.

    Using current mechanics:
    • 35% - 441.9k
    • 40% - 455.2k
    • 45% - 482.7k
    • 50% - 527.1k

    Adding Nysyr's and Harsh Discipline changes:
    • 35% - 457.2k
    • 40% - 472.7k
    • 45% - 502.4k
    • 50% - 549.0k

    Adding Nysyr's, Harsh Discipline, and Soul Stream changes:
    • 35% - 466.7k
    • 40% - 482.2k
    • 45% - 511.9k
    • 50% - 558.5k

    This is a NO NEGATIVITY thread. Productive feedback wanted. Opinions without Facts will be laughed at.

    All for the effort of making cleric great again! Hope I find some Eternal Armor in my mailbox tomorrow!
    Last edited by Jkay; 04-14-2017 at 11:01 PM.

  2. #2
    Ascendant forbiddenlake's Avatar
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    > To fix this, Nysyr's Rebuke and Harsh Discipline should be added to the abilities boosted by Radical Coalescence.

    Eh? Are you saying Nysyr's isn't currently counting as an Inquisitor channel? That would be a BUG in my book. But I think it IS, based on how quickly my Life and Death Concord stacks rise.
    Last edited by forbiddenlake; 04-14-2017 at 03:52 PM.

  3. #3
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    Default Not Quite

    Quote Originally Posted by forbiddenlake View Post
    > To fix this, Nysyr's Rebuke and Harsh Discipline should be added to the abilities boosted by Radical Coalescence.

    Eh? Are you saying Nysyr's isn't currently counting as an Inquisitor channel? That would be a BUG in my book. But I think it IS, based on how quickly my Life and Death Concord stacks rise.
    Not that part. Currently, only Bolts and DoTs get a 35% passive boost. I'm suggesting it also be applied to Nysyr's and Harsh Discipline.

  4. #4
    Ascendant Xclvsive's Avatar
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    I agree, good post.
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  5. #5
    Rift Disciple
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    Also with the eternal weapons, clerics will fall even further behind. It would be nice to see a % increase in damage like warriors and primalists get.

    In terms of offering feedback, maybe the other souls could use a buff as well. I like inquisitor and all, but it would be nice to play other souls too

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    Buff Druid thanks.

  7. #7
    Rift Master Refuge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jkay View Post
    The suggestion I would like to make involves a few changes to the mechanics of Legendary Radical Coalescence, but we should probably start with an illustration of where Inquisitor is actually standing, which you can see here.
    Confused why you've added this. What's this showing? (More detail needed). How do you know this is balanced by gear and optimal rotations? What dummy is this on?

    Secondly there's absolutely no point comparing us to tempest warriors and primalists, because both of those are parsing far too much and should be nerfed soon (already mentioned on stream tempest is being tweaked, and obviously primalist will get a beating considering it's way out of line).

    Compare us to the rest of the souls we're doing a lot better than 80%. There are a few souls out there that are performing better (noticed a rogue and mage soul that seemed to be doing a little too high as well) and a lot of them performing worse. Defiler actually seems to be parsing more than inquisitor now too, but I don't really have a problem with this, it's a spec that lacks burst potential and its a tricky spec to track.

    What the real question is, where does the Devs want the avrg dps? I got the idea that they wanted to nerf everything to bring dps down into line around 350-400k (within raid encounters - not on dummies), which they did to quite a few specs, but failed on others. But then they mention on stream you should have 450-500k for RotP. This was real facepalm from the devs, that's clearly unreasonable from a cleric, even with TD gear (unless they were talking dummies? I dunno). So maybe they're still tweaking?

    Thirdly they've already seemed to have based the whole of Inquisitor balance around one ability, RC. So I don't see how any suggestions towards RC is going to help, they clearly have already thought how they can manipulate RC to balance the spec. I should add this is a bit of a get out, and therefore I would like to see suggestions and tweaks to other abilities as well.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jkay View Post
    Three spells haven't gotten any love since SFP release:
    • Nysyr's Rebuke - Is a dps loss unless it's used within Radical Coalescence.
    • Harsh Discipline - Is a dps loss even WITHIN Radical Coalescence.
    • Soul Stream - Only useful for healing the tank when your healer dies.
    Ye this is just down to somewhat rushed balancing. Leave it down to 1 person and this is what you get. Harsh Discipline is basically an extra crap heal now (though can be part of the rotation to get the dmg buff back considering both HD and NB will be on CD), same with soul stream. Nysyr's Rebuke used to be the god ability, but that's been replaced by HD (remember HD used to be a mana replenishment XD). They haven't bothered making it decent otherwise the burst potential would be too large within pvp scenario's. So now it's just there to stack up death concord in case you need it, or part of RC. Don't expect much of a change here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jkay View Post
    Also, consider changing "Inquisitor channeled abilities" to "all channeled abilities" to make Soul Stream useful as a damaging ability.
    This alone isn't enough to completely fix the 20% margin, so the actual percent value may need to be adjusted as well.
    Making Soul Stream part of the double damage is a big nono. Unreasonable burst potential in PvP...



    In summary. What I'm kinda trying to say is, hold off any suggestions until real problematic specs are sorted out first, then we can consider how far Inq is actually performing, which let's be honest, is exactly what the devs will be thinking.

    We're not in a terrible place right now really. Worth giving defiler a go though until things are slowly balanced out. Runeshaper still seems to be a Nono right now.
    Last edited by Refuge; 04-15-2017 at 06:43 PM.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Refuge View Post
    Confused why you've added this. What's this showing? (More detail needed). How do you know this is balanced by gear and optimal rotations? What dummy is this on?
    There's some missing context here. This was a parse on a level 67 dimension dummy by the top DPS players for each class within my guild. Full upgraded (or 75%+ upgraded) LFR gear, level 15 fragments, 505 cp or better essences, pre-Wicket eternal weapon, using powerstones and no consumables. It was mostly just to highlight the gap. What's actually important are the damage breakdowns.

    Quote Originally Posted by Refuge View Post
    Compare us to the rest of the souls we're doing a lot better than 80%. There are a few souls out there that are performing better (noticed a rogue and mage soul that seemed to be doing a little too high as well) and a lot of them performing worse.
    This is incredibly vague.

    Quote Originally Posted by Refuge View Post
    Defiler actually seems to be parsing more than inquisitor now too, but I don't really have a problem with this, it's a spec that lacks burst potential and its a tricky spec to track.
    Maybe it's because my gear is optimized for Inquisitor/Shaman, or maybe there aren't any good Defilers on the NA cluster, but the only time I'm seeing Defiler come out on top is on 3-target cleaves and fights shorter than 30 seconds. Also, Defiler has a higher burst potential than Inquisitor with multiple back-to-back 1.5M+ abilities during Unstable Transformation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Refuge View Post
    But then they mention on stream you should have 450-500k for RotP. This was real facepalm from the devs, that's clearly unreasonable from a cleric, even with TD gear (unless they were talking dummies? I dunno). So maybe they're still tweaking?
    We're hardly average DPS, but our first few Malannon kills in expert gear were around 480k. So, even with disconnects, 500k is very doable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Refuge View Post
    Thirdly they've already seemed to have based the whole of Inquisitor balance around one ability, RC.
    You're almost correct. Before the balance changes, 17-19% of the total damage in a two minute window was being dealt in four seconds: Back-to-back Aggressive Inquisitions. The Perseverance legendary was reduced from 30% to 20%, which seems to be where they want it as they're undoing the Radical Coalescense changes. These suggestions were to remedy some QoL issues in the flow and spread the damage more evenly among abilities, which seemed to be the direction they were going.

    Quote Originally Posted by Refuge View Post
    Harsh Discipline is basically an extra crap heal now (though can be part of the rotation to get the dmg buff back considering both HD and NB will be on CD), same with soul stream.
    Using Soul Stream, Nysyr's, or Harsh Discipline to refresh Mental Resilience is always a DPS loss, especially with the mana costs and the eternal proc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Refuge View Post
    Making Soul Stream part of the double damage is a big nono. Unreasonable burst potential in PvP...
    Not sure how ethereal damage interacts compared to regular resists in PvP, but there's still four wasted seconds of Radical Coalescene with nothing worthwhile to fill it with.

    I'll probably post parses using various levels of gear to give an idea what a reasonable expectation is later.

  9. #9
    Rift Master Refuge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jkay View Post
    Using Soul Stream, Nysyr's, or Harsh Discipline to refresh Mental Resilience is always a DPS loss, especially with the mana costs and the eternal proc.
    How do you deal with the refesh then? I just clip them over a global cd, though that possibly might not be the way to go.
    Fwob - Zaviel

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Refuge View Post
    How do you deal with the refesh then? I just clip them over a global cd, though that possibly might not be the way to go.
    You don't. There's no way to intentionally refresh it without incurring an overall loss.
    It just happens to get refreshed when you need to channel during a movement phase.
    Last edited by Jkay; 04-22-2017 at 06:54 AM.

  11. #11
    Rift Master Refuge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jkay View Post
    You don't. There's no way to intentionally refresh it without incurring an overall loss.
    It just happens to get refreshed when you need to channel during a movement phase.
    I'm actually quite shocked about that. Back to the drawing board...
    Fwob - Zaviel

  12. #12
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    If you can use your burst twice as often as INQ you will have more opportunities per time to deliver burst and end fights at the top of your parse usually. As those fights become easier and faster to defeat the imbalance shows even more. Also, in PvP you have more opportunity with other classes to burst per time in warfront because of the lower timer. The problem with these suggestions is they don't fix the major problem of the cleric. RC should be a 1 min cd so it is BALANCED with other burst timers from similar souls.


    There is so much that needs to be looked at outside of dps and hps balancing. Playability over 1000s of different scenarios will show more of what is happening and needs to be adjusted from soul to soul. If the average dps of cleric is less than that of the other classes average its clearly imbalanced even though you do happen to be competitive on a standing dummy and if anything pvp is proving this is fact. Things they can't test for are being tested in PvP everyday. Such as mana issues, target switching issues, passive cleaves, ease of use etc. Consider they make a spec that is a standing turret.

    It can be competitive with a completely mobile spec on dps on the dummy but if you put those specs in a very mobile fight of course the spec with more mobility is going to win out most of the time. There is a lot to consider.. Suggestions like this are great but in my opinion I think there is way more issues that plague the class that they have to considered and most suggestions are bandaid fixes or partial fixes at best. In the end it is just more work loads being created that actually don't fix the total balancing issue.
    Last edited by Flashmemory; 04-23-2017 at 03:24 AM.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Refuge View Post
    Secondly there's absolutely no point comparing us to tempest warriors and primalists, because both of those are parsing far too much and should be nerfed soon (already mentioned on stream tempest is being tweaked, and obviously primalist will get a beating considering it's way out of line).
    You assume that these are momentary things. I have seen classes like Reaver back in NT being OP for 6-7 month period of time and not being adjusted for that long even though it was clear as day from day 1 when revamp 2.0 went live it was very OP. FK in PvP being adjusted super gradually overtime and still OP in comparison as of today and so on. Try not to operate under the assumption that things are momentary for other classes regardless of what the dev said. Consider the fact he said that like 2 or 3 weeks ago and nothing has changed. Take this druifiler incident. It only lasted about a month if that long at the tail end of an expansion where competitive dps really didn't matter. Take a look at other classes and how they stay on top especially primalist and warrior for last 6 months at the prime time part of the expansion where there is actually players to compete with.


    Prior to Tempest RB was already topping charts so the same class is sitting at a higher competitive level for what others can see as going into 6 months of being OP in "some way" in comparison to their class in this expansion alone.
    Last edited by Aedynn; 04-22-2017 at 08:50 PM.

  14. #14
    Rift Master Refuge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aedynn View Post
    You assume that these are momentary things. I have seen classes like Reaver back in NT being OP for 6-7 month period of time and not being adjusted for that long even though it was clear as day from day 1 when revamp 2.0 went live it was very OP.
    Well this is just sad, but why expect inquisitor to be fixed before a broken soul O_o? Surely the order is clear, even if it does take 6 months..

    Saying that, PTS is showing inquisitor back at 50% lol..
    Fwob - Zaviel

  15. #15
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    Thanks for bring attention to this class, I'm wondering what modern (post 4.1) rotations people are using. I'm reasonably well geared for current content and I can BARELY break ~250k DPS unless there is support and then i can just break 300k. (Gear reference, pre-wicket legendary, leveled dungeon gear, couple of pieces of un-leveled TD gear...)

    What I've seen from dummy parses is we have stupid high burst then our dps just starts to drop off significantly, especially when compared to shaman, where, on dummy parses, I start around 250k and climb up to the 300's (for me) and seems to remain in that neighborhood (although I can barely get ~200ish in TD).

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