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Thread: Suggestions for warden changes (discussion wanted!)

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    Soulwalker Sejong's Avatar
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    Question Suggestions for warden changes (discussion wanted!)

    Hey folks!
    Now, I really do love the warden spec, its mechanics and its water theme, however there is one thing that annoys me so hard:
    It is sooo lackluster for healing smaller groups of people.

    You might now think: ''Well, but warden is the aoe healing spec so it's natural that it has its weakness in healing fewer targets otherwise it'd be op.'' and I agree. (In fact I am not at all considering changing anything about our aoeheals, as I really don't know how they compete engame atm )
    Warden is the aoe-healer, however other healing specs have more tools to cope with small group or even tankhealing, too:
    Chloromancers can switch between tank- and raidhealing stance for instance, liberators can do both to some extent.

    It's just not conveniant to always switch specs and abilities imo, and if other classes can to it with one spec, why shouldn't we be able to?
    It's a big difference whether you only have single target heals (you can still jump from flower to flower just like a bee to keep multiple ppl up) or only aoe heals (which is like trying to put out a fire by putting a lawn sprinkler in front of it).
    This would also add a lot to the cleric playstyle overall, since it would then have a spec for big absorbs, big single target cast heals AND hots/aoe healing at the same time!

    I am not asking for crazy buffs, but I would really love to be able to heal dungeons or pvp as a warden without the need of a single target cohealer to keep people from being kiled by a single dd, maybe itroduce something like the three stances for the cabalist.

    Overall my idea is to create a still aoe-oriented healer (with more emphasis put on hots) that can keep up with group pressure and can deliver good single target sustained healing, while leaving the already existing playstyle intact.

    We could be a hot healer for fewer targets, keeping healing flood up, stacking soothing stream and healing spray on multiple people at once, while providing some spothealing with healing breath/flare or overflowing renewal. For damage spikes, throw out a ripple, if more is needed monsun or wave of renewal.

    Maybe they could change it somehow like this:
    (Correct me if I am terribly wrong or breaking the game, as you can tell I really don't have that much experience)

    -Reduce the amount of stacks for soothing stream but keep the oveall healing for max stacks the same OR reduce the gcd fo soothing stream)

    -Rework oveflowing renewal to have a hot component added to it (continuous spamming triggers part of the remaining hot as heal so spamhealing still works)

    -Add an alternative blessing to bosuns blessing that reduces the amount of targets healed by aoe abilities but increases overall healing a little (maybe even change the way downpour and wave of renewal work),
    and changes dangers of the deep into something completely different (gain one stack for each
    casted heal, increases hot duration by x per stack, stacks 5 times, lasts 20 seconds,
    decreases cast time and increases healing of overflowing renewal for each hot on
    target by x).



    Let me know what you think, do you like the idea of giving warden a dungeon-stance? Why/why not? Do you have anything to add?

    Cheers!

  2. #2
    Ascendant Zehne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sejong View Post
    be able to heal dungeons or pvp as a warden without the need of a single target cohealer
    PVE:
    Currently Warden is broken OP, and can do this very easily
    After fixes, warden will still be able to do this.

    PVP:
    I may be wrong, but healing crystal in PvP is broken?!? that's a huge loss to warden heals.
    Warden has additional healing nerfs for PvP than just the standard amount because it quickly outpaces other specs in raw numbers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sejong View Post
    -Rework oveflowing renewal to have a hot component added to it (continuous spamming triggers part of the remaining hot as heal so spamhealing still works)
    The 64 mastery already does (most of) this. Overflowing renewal is a really strong ST heal before you account for the hot effect. Add in HF, HS and SS and the ST capability of warden is really high (pre-broken OP and very likely post 'balance passes').

    EDIT:
    Warden is very mechanically intensive to play (very difficult). So if you think it's not able to heal effectively (in PVE) then you're probably doing something wrong. As I posted in a thread awhile ago warden has AoE numbers so high, it's as if you have 4+ ST healers healing everyone in the raid at same time. (Basically 1 warden in a 10 man raid is like having 40 ST healers)
    Last edited by Zehne; 02-28-2017 at 12:59 PM.

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    Ascendant DarkDaemon's Avatar
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    A chimpanzee playing bard could heal dungeons right now. Not to detract from your other points, but warden is perfectly capable of healing experts, even without divine favor.

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    Ascendant Zehne's Avatar
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    As far as changes to warden goes, there have been too many threads that address the mechanical issues that warden has.

    Unfortunately none of these mechanical issues have been addressed and the introduction of legendaries only compounded a few of them.

    Warden is getting tuned on PTS, but that's only because as I mentioned before it's numbers are waaaaay too high (super nerf batting needed). However from what I've seen only the #'s are being addressed and all the mechanical issues are being neglected.

    Specifically the mechanical issues of warden is what makes it hard to play and is the reason why there is a huge skill gap for the spec. If you know how warden works and can actively play around the mechanical issues then it's pretty amazing how effective it is. The problem is that it takes much more effort to play warden to an effective level than it does to play Sentinel or Puri.

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    Ascendant Zehne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkDaemon View Post
    A chimpanzee playing bard could heal dungeons right now. Not to detract from your other points, but warden is perfectly capable of healing experts, even without divine favor.
    Oracle can heal them atm (with divine favor). Haven't tried to yet w/o divine favor, but a oracle build with Legendary Salvation can beast mode through most fights. (Salvation multi-procs from using AoE Oracle stance).

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    Soulwalker Sejong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zehne View Post
    PVE:
    Currently Warden is broken OP, and can do this very easily
    After fixes, warden will still be able to do this.

    EDIT:
    Warden is very mechanically intensive to play (very difficult). So if you think it's not able to heal effectively (in PVE) then you're probably doing something wrong. As I posted in a thread awhile ago warden has AoE numbers so high, it's as if you have 4+ ST healers healing everyone in the raid at same time. (Basically 1 warden in a 10 man raid is like having 40 ST healers)
    Okay, fair enough^^. As I said I don't know how warden is performing right now at max level but good that you mention that it is op.

    From my previous experience I was used to a warden that cannot under any circumstances keep up a 5 man group (That's why most people played sentinel or puri).

    As far as numbers go I have to pass. But actually even if the numbers are broken op, wouldn't it be more fun if we actually had a cool playstyle/synergy going on for smaller groups of people rather than just spamhealing? Having stronger hots would also make the spec more survivable in pvp (that was, as far as I can remember the biggest weakness warden had.).
    If warden is so broken op, then a nerf will (hopefully) fix this and the big question is, will this affect our viability in dungeons/pvp?

    I am not talking about raids right now, warden has always been a very good raidhealer.

    My whole point was, that warden doesn't have a real playstyle for healing fewer people or tunneled targets, so putting more emphasis on hot heals in a second stance and thus kind of splitting the spec into two different fun and engaging playstyles rather than just spamhealing your way to victory,

    Actually if we introduced this change a nerf to the broken raidhealing numbers would not cripple us in smaller group scenarioes

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    Soulwalker Sejong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkDaemon View Post
    A chimpanzee playing bard could heal dungeons right now. Not to detract from your other points, but warden is perfectly capable of healing experts, even without divine favor.
    Yeah okay, as I said, I haven't been around for some time^^.
    The point is I want warden to be an aoe raid healer in one stance, and a 5 man hot healer with some group heals in the other stance. By creating two different versions of the spec we can ensure that warden performs well in all situations (eg. nerfing the crap out of op numbers would not kill dungeon healing) and not break one or both.
    Last edited by Sejong; 02-28-2017 at 01:24 PM.

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    Ascendant Artewig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkDaemon View Post
    A chimpanzee playing bard could heal dungeons right now. Not to detract from your other points, but warden is perfectly capable of healing experts, even without divine favor.
    Are you calling me a chimpanzee?
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    Ascendant Snap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sejong View Post
    My whole point was, that warden doesn't have a real playstyle for healing fewer people or tunneled targets, so putting more emphasis on hot heals in a second stance and thus kind of splitting the spec into two different fun and engaging playstyles rather than just spamhealing your way to victory,
    Try Wardinel then.

    If you ask Zehne, he'll write you a novel about it.
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    Ascendant DarkDaemon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artewig View Post
    Are you calling me a chimpanzee?
    If it looks like a duck...

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    Ascendant Zehne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sejong View Post
    The point is I want warden to be an aoe raid healer in one stance, and a 5 man hot healer with some group heals in the other stance.
    Use Cataract, Healing Effusion ---> AoE stance
    Use Overflowing Renewal -----> ST stance

    maintain warden upkeep and litterally that's the only difference.

    Overflowing Renewal is a really strong ST heal (add in the 64 mastery and it handles everything np).

    Overflowing Renewal is currently uneffected by warden OP bugs and balance pass nerfs won't effect it at all.

    Only bugged interactions of the hots, and bosuns, etc will change. Since Overflowing renewal doesn't proc bosuns, that means that the only thing balance passes will change for Warden's ST healing is that the hots won't be broken anymore.
    Well technically when the nerfs hit you'll actually start using overflowing renewal because atm to st heal you just hit your aoe heals because bosuns blessing is bigger than overflowing renewal.

    No need for stances, just use AoE heals to AoE heal and ST heals (overflowing renewal) to ST heal. If you're playing warden 'correctly' you'll already always have ST hots up on one person 100% the time anyways. This means that THE ONLY change between ST and AoE healing is using the ST or AoE heal. Mechanically everything is identical.

  12. #12
    Soulwalker Sejong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zehne View Post
    Use Cataract, Healing Effusion ---> AoE stance
    Use Overflowing Renewal -----> ST stance

    maintain warden upkeep and litterally that's the only difference.

    Overflowing Renewal is a really strong ST heal (add in the 64 mastery and it handles everything np).

    Overflowing Renewal is currently uneffected by warden OP bugs and balance pass nerfs won't effect it at all.

    Only bugged interactions of the hots, and bosuns, etc will change. Since Overflowing renewal doesn't proc bosuns, that means that the only thing balance passes will change for Warden's ST healing is that the hots won't be broken anymore.
    Well technically when the nerfs hit you'll actually start using overflowing renewal because atm to st heal you just hit your aoe heals because bosuns blessing is bigger than overflowing renewal.

    No need for stances, just use AoE heals to AoE heal and ST heals (overflowing renewal) to ST heal. If you're playing warden 'correctly' you'll already always have ST hots up on one person 100% the time anyways. This means that THE ONLY change between ST and AoE healing is using the ST or AoE heal. Mechanically everything is identical.
    But wouldn't it be nice to have soothing stream stack more quickly? From a pve perspective this is a QoL change, from a pvp perspective it goes a long way to help warden deal with spike damage and target swaps. It would also help with derp teammates when you don't want to ripple/monsun when they pull something.

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    Ascendant DarkDaemon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sejong View Post
    But wouldn't it be nice to have soothing stream stack more quickly? From a pve perspective this is a QoL change, from a pvp perspective it goes a long way to help warden deal with spike damage and target swaps. It would also help with derp teammates when you don't want to ripple/monsun when they pull something.
    Don't use a stacking HoT to deal with spike damage?

    Reducing the time it takes to build stacks kind of defeats the purpose of having stacks.

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    Soulwalker Sejong's Avatar
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    Default EXCELESCONDIDA

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkDaemon View Post
    Don't use a stacking HoT to deal with spike damage?

    Reducing the time it takes to build stacks kind of defeats the purpose of having stacks.
    Not at all. If we just had three or two stacks it would still be bad if you let them fall off and you still have to manage them, but at the same time you are more flexible when it comes to more chaotic damage, like in pvp when people randomly switch target.
    Last edited by Sejong; 02-28-2017 at 04:17 PM.

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