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Thread: A Senti Thread

  1. #1
    Plane Touched Myred's Avatar
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    Default A Senti Thread

    Since there have been a rash of PVP discussions of Frostkeeper, there have been a few opportunities to articulate existing problems with Sentinel. I just wanted to organize some useful Senti feedback from Riane and Ecru into the Cleric discussion forums to start a conversation or encourage a review:
    • "The soul is outdated and at this point, doesn't really seem to feel like it's scaling well with the gear in terms of it's output. And the fact that in general, majority of it's healing output is from a mastery, Divine Favor, which we obviously can't cast on ourselves. So in a dueling situation, you're pretty much out a 65 mastery that's good." [1]
    • "Don't even get me started on how awful the 61 point is for Sentinel or the fact that it doesn't really have any major hybridizations as Mages in general can have." [2]
    • "Divine Favor and Faith's Reward is a mastery and is not apart of any soul itself. It's a bandaid, broken, and has caused other souls (see FK) to be balanced around this crap." [3]
    • "You can test it yourself. Crit rime vs crit crucial + echoes of altrusim + healer's blessing + light of redemption are about equal." [4]

    I'd also like to add:
    • Even though the Senti tree provides boosts to shielding, Senti has no passive mechanism to convert overhealing to shielding--let alone a shield ability of its own--unlike more recently released/revitalized souls.
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  2. #2
    Shield of Telara
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    Sentinel would be fine if shielding wasn't so damn powerful.

  3. #3
    Plane Walker
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    Default QoL change

    There are just Too many buffs. In PvP especially as people have gotten better at purging, Sent has just become a rebuff nightmare.

    I do still like the way Sent plays when the buffs are up. But it's unfortunate it has no use in Raiding.

  4. #4
    RIFT Fan Site Operator Riane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trauumhaft View Post
    Sentinel would be fine if shielding wasn't so damn powerful.
    While shielding isn't so powerful, a lot of the raid boss's damage done happens between a 1s to 1.5s GCD. So normal usage of Healing Invocation might be too slow to top up because you have nothing in between.

    Frostkeeper does it really well by having Telluric Burst on a shorter CD than Healing Breath that also leaves a HoT w/ it. Then it reduces Earthen Renewal to 1s. So while you still have a 1.5s GCD in a normal FK spec, you have more filler and quicker top ups. Also better synergy with Chloro.

    Sentinel would really just have to be reworked to have similar functionality of Frostkeeper and not be dependent on masteries (Faith's Reward and Divine Favor.) Built-in cast-time reduction (perhaps tied to Enraptured Breath), a HoT component to Healing Breath.

    The three invocations can be fine to stay but it's mana consumption needs to be adjusted to be line with Frostkeeper's. Possibly change Attentive to return mana on crits vs increasing max mana. Nyol's Hope changed to a 1 minute CD instead. Healer's Haste be swapped to a 1 minute instead (be glad I didn't ask for 45s like FK Cold Snap.)

    I think we could lose Renewed Altruism as well when we have lower CDs. I'm not sure what I'd recommend for the 61 point.

    Obviously you wouldn't want to make it an exact copy of Frostkeeper because that's a paid soul and Sentinel is F2P. I'm not also sure I'd recommend adding in the whole "heal two at once" mechanic in a buff.

    I'd probably play on my Cleric a lot more if things were reworked and updated to fit within the current meta.
    Last edited by Riane; 08-03-2016 at 12:13 PM.

  5. #5
    Plane Touched Myred's Avatar
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    I am okay with having n buffs, but the utility on them is outdated. Buffs shouldn't provided a flat heal boost--or at least, the way every other spec is built, that's the way the development philosophy leans. Other ST healer buffs provide things like passive absorbs or cross healing or damage mitigation. Losing either one in a pvp setting renders you less effective, but it doesn't wipe your healing by 10-20%
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    Ascendant ecru's Avatar
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    the problem with sent in compared to other newer healing souls is that it has no healing over time components, no mitigation, and no shielding. this would all be perfectly fine if sent was the HPS monster that it used to be, but it's not. FK has higher output with added mitigation, increased health, passive healing, and shielding benefits from it's barriers, while having virtually no issues with resource management.

    FK also works much better not only because it has rolling hots attached to everything, but because you can gain a 1s gcd for your ER casts and for 3 instant casts of ER during cold snap if you use telluric before it. bloom is also much better than healing breath, and resurgence is better than healing spray that you might pick up with warden. i realize resurgence is quite high in the tree, but pretty much everyone uses the hybrid. transcendent abjuration is also ogcd (compare to fullness of live), which is huge. this means that you're quicker to react to outgoing damage due to a potentially shorter gcd, quicker to heal, and your output doesn't stop if you switch targets or get cc'd.

    considering this, where does sent fit in? it can only fluff heal multiple targets at once because divine favor is so weak, it cannot shield, it gets nothing out of overhealing, it provides no mitigation outside of healer's covenant, and when cc'd, it's output drops to 0 aside from whatever healing breath you might have rolling (which is nothing), or vigilance, which just plain sucks and is on a long cd.

    so what to do with sent? since puri is our tank healing soul in raid, sent needs to be the hps monster that it used to be. since divine favor is extremely weak in pvp now (max crit just over 4k), light of redemption could use some love. it's already ogcd which makes it quite easy to swap, but it's still extremely weak considering it has to be swapped to each target, and then only benefits from invocations. i'd like to see light of redemption buffed with a larger heal or some kind of mitigation bonus. FK and WC (i think) get the same 6% mitigation bonus on their targets, but sent adds nothing. FK barriers also inrease max health, so their targets with barriers both get the extra mitigation and extra HP. sent is extremely weak in the "benefits" it provides to anyone it's healing, because outside of healer's covenant, all it does is throw out decently sized heals with no hots, no shielding, and no mitigation. if we aren't going to be getting any mitigation or any shielding, our output needs to go way up.

    i did switch my build over to 61 for light of redemption, but only because i'm hard casting so many invocations that it's finally worth it, rather than relying on divine favor for so much of my output. still, the difference is negligible, making it weak for a 61 point ability, and the fact that both your 58 point and 61 point abilities can be purged off is frustrating.

    -healing breath could use a change, perhaps with a change to enraptured breath. enraptured breath as it works now isn't particularly useful since it heals for such a small amount, and i'd rather see more focus on healing my actual target rather than (maybe) throwing fluff heals out on two other people. allowing it to jump to two extra targets for it's full amount after a few seconds would be a welcome benefit compared to what it does now, as would adding a cast time reduction with a gcd reduction, or a hot.

    -echoes of altruism is weak with anything but a crucial and with the mastery is just a lazy way to increase output, plus a good amount of it likely gets converted into overhealing. allowing it to also heal the two other lowest health party members would be a good way to get more benefit out of it without overtuning sent's single-target healing. a hot here wouldn't work well unless it stacked (lol) as it would just get reapplied over and over again.

    -vigilance sucks. yes, it's ogcd, but it's on a 2 minute cd and heals for such a small amount that you might as well forget you have it. at least reduce the cd to 1 minute, and add some other component to it rather than a tiny heal, like a supplementary hot for 100% of the heal or just increase the amount it heals for in general.

    -healer's haste. casting 1s crucials is nice, but your output doesn't actually increase because you're still tied to a 1.5s gcd, so for 0.5s after every crucial, you're doing nothing. switch it to a 1 minute cd, and allow it to reduce the sentinel's next 5 gcd's to 1 second, either allowing for more output through healing flare/healing breath + divine favor, or hard casting crucials.

    -nyol's hope. 2 minute cd, would be nice if it were 1 minute, but this may be a bit much with renewed altruism and my suggestion for healer's haste above, so potentially reducing the stacks from 5 to 3 would be acceptable if it were to go to a 1 minute cd.

    -fullness of life. keep it on gcd, but add a hot for 100% of it's healing done to give it some added benefit compared to FK's transcendent abjuration. i believe fullness already has a pvp-specific reduction on it, and currently it doesn't even heal for that much anyway, so this wouldn't be too overtuned considering it's 1 minute cd.

    i think mana usage is mostly fine aside from crucial invocation. it's mana cost could be reduced, and reverent supplication could be turned into a toggle. right now the buff/cancelbuff mechanic is annoying and just adds another extra button to your bar that doesn't need to be there.

    -divine call. lol. completely useless in it's current state. buff the output a bit, reduce it to a 20s cd, and add a cleanse component to it.

    -wrathful exuberance. this could be changed to something useful, because right now it does just about nothing. i would really like if it actually did a considerable amount of damage, because the idea of buffing someone's dps in pvp that i'm pocketing is very appealing. this was tried with FK, but didn't really work all that well, and since sent won't be used in raid there aren't any balance considerations there. another idea is a short-duration buff on your target that has a chance to proc a snare or root on players damaging them.

    -healing communion. get rid of it. divine call is enough. convert it into some sort of utility.

    this is more effort than i wanted to spend on this so i think i'm done for now, but hopefully this will open up some sort of discussion because sent in it's current form has lost it's niche, which was it's incredible output, and has gotten nothing to compensate or modernize the soul to make it comparable to newer paid souls.
    Last edited by ecru; 08-04-2016 at 04:47 AM.
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  7. #7
    Plane Touched Myred's Avatar
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    I'm surprised there's not more feedback. I know I have only ever really seen one or two other sentinels in warfronts, but I was expecting there to be more community interest in discussing sentinel healing.

    I'd just like to see Sentinel move towards the current ST meta that the devs started working towards in Storm Legion and have furthered in Nightmare Tide. Senti has a lot of utility, and it can still top the charts in output, but high HPS isn't a good indicator of effect and that becomes very apparent under certain conditions.

    I hate to join the chorus, Divine Favor plays like a crutch--not only is it an AOE ability that is also my top heal % as an ST healer, but there's a noticeable difference between healing a target with DF on vs one without, and I think this case is very well illustrated by Healing Spray.

    As Ecru and Rianne have suggested, a filling HOT is essential because of opponent damage timing relative to your cast times and gcds. Because Senti doesn't have an HOT of its own it's forced to borrow Healing Spray from Warden, but because Senti only boosts Life based abilities, Healing Spray receives no bonus, so if you throw Healing Spray on a target it's doing very little for you. However, if you have DF on that target, the addition of procs from Divine Favor boost Healing Spray so that it's far more effective--it's not going to save a player, but it gives it added oomph that it's missing out on due to poor synergy, but it's still not enough to compete with an HOT from the primary soul.

    The gcd+cast time delay is also not remedied by Faith's Reward. The only low cost instant cast ability in sentinel is Healing Breath, with a ten second (?) cd. This would allow me to cast exactly one SI or CI with a one second cast time. After that, I have to use Healing Spray (no synergy except with divine favor) or Healing Flare from Puri (again, no synergy except with divine favor) to gain the same benefit. So, to reduce my cast times, I have to use something that provides no synergy unless it's proccing Divine Favor, which in turn makes it feel more like a crutch.

    And this isn't to say, necessarily, that Divine Favor or Faith's Reward need to be taken out. It is to say, however, that they highlight everything Sentinel is missing: synergy with Hots, effective cast time reduction, and general oomph.

    The closest Senti has to a built in HOT is Echoes of Altruism, and at 12% after 1s it's no surprise that it's disfavored--especially when abilities like Harmony in frostkeeper apply 10% every 1s for 6s. Senti also provides no passive mitigation or even overheal conversion, while other ST souls released with and since SL have included variations and combinations of these utilities to literal game altering effect.

    I know that maybe it's a bit much to ask for an update to senti. Given how all the new healing souls are meant to fill an existing gap within a class, I can understand why they wrap everything up into one; cleric, on the other hand, has always been /the/ healing class with specific, specialized healing solutions--puri is /the/ shield soul; defiler is /the/ mitigation soul; sentinel was /the/ healing soul--that no other class could offer, so maybe a multifunctional rework of sentinel feels accessory. However, I think that given the way the development of the game has shifted to give every class a multi-function ST healer, it isn't unfair of Cleric to ask permission to enter the meta.
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    I have to say, that in my opinion, Sentinel and Purifier should be merged into one healing soul.
    I can not see a way to make both viable, and it would be better to make one soul with a heal-to-shield ratio is closer to what the new healing souls provide.

    Sentinel is in such a bad spot that it would take a lot to make it PvE viable, while Purifier is so strong it would take a lot to bring it down sufficient in PvE.

    As for PvP, I have not healed a lot for a while, but it has been my impression lately that neither Sentinel nor Purifier is doing all that well.

    As for Divine Favor, removing it would make problems for both souls right now, but a rework could have some more built in options for healing several targets. If nothing else, it would feel better if your biggest healing contributor is in the soul itself and not a mastery.
    Last edited by Pretoi; 08-03-2016 at 11:21 PM.

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    Plane Touched
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    oh look, another nerf fk buff x thread

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    Ascendant ecru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harski View Post
    oh look, another nerf fk buff x thread
    could you share your experiences healing with sentinel vs frostkeeper in warfronts? you've done both right?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ecru View Post
    could you share your experiences healing with sentinel vs frostkeeper in warfronts? you've done both right?
    Sure, FK (I play 61 - so yeah I'm bad) on an undergeared noobie mage provides more healing output, has more tools for "savior", and better self survival than my well geared 5+ y/o cleric with elo over 3k.

  12. #12
    RIFT Fan Site Operator Riane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harski View Post
    oh look, another nerf fk buff x thread
    If you took the time to read the thread, all comments have been about how to improve Sentinel. If you don't plan to contribute toward that, just don't reply in this thread.

  13. #13
    Plane Touched Myred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harski View Post
    oh look, another nerf fk buff x thread
    I think that's fair criticism, but I'd say it's closer to a "These other new heal souls are very well thought out, fun to play, and consistent with the general direction Trion has been taking ST healing. Since Senti hasn't really changed to keep up with the other changes and it currently lacks a niche in both PVE and PVP content, can Senti receive an update?"
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    Ascendant ecru's Avatar
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    one change that i would like to see maden soon to actually make cleric healing viable again is to make most/all sent buffs unpurgeable besides light of redemption and marked by the light. this is something that should have been done months ago.

    right now there is not a single reason to play a cleric healer over a frostkeeper in a warfront. i've been playing sent a bit recently and it's just unreal how bad the output is, how slow it is, how easily you die, and how susceptible you are to purges compared to FK.

    edit: if we had every dps soul doing 60k dps, and one outlier doing 100k, it would probably get changed pretty quickly, but since it's healing i guess it doesn't seem to matter heh.
    Last edited by ecru; 08-05-2016 at 12:56 AM.
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    Plane Touched Myred's Avatar
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    Also, sincerely, no pressure and thank you for listening. There's an xpac coming out, plus the current defiler rework, so we're content to wait.
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