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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: Druid Updates on PTS!

  1. #46
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    Wholeheartedly agree with that recent batch of changes you announced, can't wait to try it. Well played guys!
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  2.   Click here to go to the next Rift Team post in this thread.   #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orochan View Post
    I want druid to be viable yes, very much so, but not at the cost of making shaman absolutely inferior.
    On this point we for sure have an accord. I want to emphasize that the druid that's currently on PTS is no where near final damage tuning. A major design goal is ensuring that shaman is still a viable choice.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dev_Orren View Post
    On this point we for sure have an accord. I want to emphasize that the druid that's currently on PTS is no where near final damage tuning. A major design goal is ensuring that shaman is still a viable choice.
    You're the best. Seriously.

    The biggest thing I see now is that druids will most definitely want to take massive blow from shaman, and massive blow with all the druid debuffs hits freaking hard.

    http://postimg.org/image/pzr60g31n/

    Poor image quality but it reads as

    MB = ~180k with a ~224k FM proc
    Punishing strike = ~154k and a ~192k FM proc.

    My cleric has ~11k wis and ~20k SP ( dont have game up atm, will post more screens later )

    This was with all debuffs up, so CE + 5 stacks of weakness.

    The problem I see is that the druids biggest hits are in the shaman tree with massive blow, and our level 65 mastery punishing strike. I haven't yet tested the change to the buffed version of Censure though, I will be doing more testing in the coming days.

    Let's consider though, even if censure does manage to do more damage than MB, it will still be a dps loss because MB has 100% crit rate. Hard to deny such a strong ability like that.

    This worries me though, because I don't want to see a nerf to massive blow, which would be a nerf to shaman, without some sort of buff to even shaman out again. I'm all for making MB not be a forced crit again, if shaman gets something else, but this isn't about shaman right now.

    As a side note, I have no idea why fae mimicry was hitting harder than the actual damage that was dealt, I can only assume it has something to do with weakness debuff + CE debuff, so it's probably a bug you should look into, I can't nail it down precisely.
    Last edited by Orochan; 05-25-2016 at 05:31 PM.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dev_Orren View Post
    On this point we for sure have an accord. I want to emphasize that the druid that's currently on PTS is no where near final damage tuning. A major design goal is ensuring that shaman is still a viable choice.
    The problem with this is that in the same situation, unless Shaman and Druid do absolutely identical DPS, the one that does even slightly more will be preferred, while the other will not be considered a viable choice.
    If you want to make it so that the two specs each have their own certain situations that they shine on, could we get some insight as to what those situations are supposed to be for both specs respectively? For example, which one of the two specs is supposed to be better for a pure single target melee scenario? Which one is supposed to deal better with disconnects? In a cleaving scenario, do you want players to choose Shaman or Druid?
    Basically, what is supposed to set the new, pet-less Druid apart from Shaman from a non-numerical perspective?
    Last edited by Athanil; 05-25-2016 at 05:31 PM.
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  5. #50
    Sword of Telara Orochan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athanil View Post
    The problem with this is that in the same situation, unless Shaman and Druid do absolutely identical DPS, the one that does even slightly more will be preferred, while the other will not be considered a viable choice.
    If you want to make it so that the two specs each have their own certain situations that they shine on, could we get some insight as to what those situations are supposed to be for both specs respectively? For example, which one of the two specs is supposed to be better for a pure single target melee scenario? Which one is supposed to deal better with disconnects? In a cleaving scenario, do you want players to choose Shaman or Druid?
    Basically, what is supposed to set the new, pet-less Druid apart from Shaman from a non-numerical perspective?
    I can tell you right now shaman has better cleave and better aoe, so on those fights I see shaman being used, unless melee isn't an option. I haven't tested druid in such scenarios, but it's hard to imagine it will beat out spreading frozen wrath from shaman, that is huge numbers on a parse.

    Also they don't have to be identical dps per se, if shaman and druid fall within 5k dps of one another, that is a pretty good balancing line IMO.

    Also I forgot but the only other "major" issue I see is all the pet only talents that go to waste while conduit is active, but this isn't a druid specific problem, as ele's get the same treatment. I know this is kind've a necessary evil type of change, but I do wish something got added to those talents so they could still be useful while conduit is active.

    So to recap it's :

    - Thorns of Ire being useless

    - Crushing force being useless, doing less damage than vex

    - Druid's biggest hits are not part of the druid soul tree

    - Pet talents trivialized while conduit buff active


    I feel these are the highest priority issues atm.

  6. #51
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    There is sort of a "let's meet half way" going on with the Fae Mimicry change. Players have a disposition to use it inside the rotation as well as save it for raid cd blocks. In a way you fixed the opener but still leave a lot of room for error when considering target switching. In my opinion since crushing force is inferior to vex and it is really difficult to give up Inq you could consider making Crushing Force the cd for applying the five stacks and removing its damage component entirely. It would probably fit in with leveling the druid soul better as well.
    Last edited by Flashmemory; 05-25-2016 at 06:09 PM.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flashmemory View Post
    There is sort of a "let's meet half way" going on with the Fae Mimicry change. Players have a disposition to use it inside the rotation as well as save it for raid cd blocks. In a way you actually fixed the opener but still leave a lot of room for error when considering target switching. In my opinion since crushing force is inferior to vex and it is really difficult to give up Inq you could consider making Crushing Force the cd for applying the five stacks and removing its damage component entirely. It would probably fit in with leveling the druid soul better as well.
    Good idea, but I think we can take it a step further and make Crushing Force a root or a stun while adding your proposed change to Thorns of Ire instead.

    Also keep in mind runeshaper's seal of pain does more damage than vex, and for the same 5 points you can get inscribe fate as well, which does a lot of damage compared to other similar abilities. I feel Seal of Pain and Inscribe fate make up for losing out on 5% crit buff. I think the best subsouls for druid will be RS and Shaman all things considered.
    Last edited by Orochan; 05-25-2016 at 06:13 PM.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orochan View Post
    Good idea, but I think we can take it a step further and make Crushing Force a root or a stun while adding your proposed change to Thorns of Ire instead.

    Also keep in mind runeshaper's seal of pain does more damage than vex, and for the same 5 points you can get inscribe fate as well, which does a lot of damage compared to other similar abilities. I feel Seal of Pain and Inscribe fate make up for losing out on 5% crit buff. I think the best subsouls for druid will be RS and Shaman all things considered.
    Definitely true and was considering to say Thorns instead of Crushing but realized how early on Thorns appears and it seems like it wouldn't fit in with other buffs of that nature which usually occurred much later on in most of the other classes. For instance, Tactical Surge from warlord which is somewhat similar and at the 48 point mark.

    However, Thorns seems like a candidate for utility since other souls do actually have unique utility in that slot.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aayden View Post
    Riftblade would like to have a word with you.
    And Warlord, and Champion and Beastmaster. All melee souls, and all with a 1.5 sec GCD too.

    You've a ranged and a melee spec that has a 1 sec GCD already. Y'all can't even see that DPS wise, you're already ahead of everyone else (from a 1 sec GCD perspective). Well, except for the rogues, but they're the games special snowflakes anyway.
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  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dimples View Post
    And Warlord, and Champion and Beastmaster. All melee souls, and all with a 1.5 sec GCD too.

    You've a ranged and a melee spec that has a 1 sec GCD already. Y'all can't even see that DPS wise, you're already ahead of everyone else (from a 1 sec GCD perspective). Well, except for the rogues, but they're the games special snowflakes anyway.
    Warlord has an OGCD snare, 2 charges, 2 pulls. Warlord can also reset it's charges.

    Champion is an AOE soul, so it doesn't even fit in this equation, but it has a stun, charge, it can reset it's charge, it has a fear/root, and it can spec into warlord for.....you guessed it! An OGCD snare + a pull.

    Beastmaster has ranged abilities, but I would say it too could use another pass on buffing it's abilities.

    Riftblade again, has default ranged abilities, and it's hardest hitting abilities are OGCD and can be procced from range. RB also has a teleport, and a stun, also passive movement speed as well.

    DPS wise we are not ahead of anyone. Inquisitor is behind, so is shaman.

    Warriors can go reaver or tempest, both are ranged souls, so 1.5 sec GCD is acceptable, as there is leeway in being ranged.

    Mages have pyro which is 1sec GCD, warlock which is 1sec GCD, harb, which is 1sec GCD, and ele which can proc 1sec GCD. ( yes I know pyro gets 1sec GCd on fire only abilities, lock on dot only abilities, but that's the core of their kits )

    Primalist and rogues are 1sec GCD by default.

    Not only is your post off topic, it's flat out wrong. Stop complaining about warriors when they have more dps options, and specifically when warlord has the most tools out of any melee class to keep someone in melee!

    Seriously this is annoying having to refute all of this time and time again. Clerics have ONE, melee dps soul, and ONE, ranged dps soul that are viable. You can count runeshaper, but since all the new souls are way overtuned, I will not count RS until more changes come through, but let's be honest, RS isn't anything to write home about to begin with.

    Clerics have no options when it comes to dps, or tanking for that matter, so what ends up happening is everyone wants us to go puri or defiler. I have never heard anyone say "gee I wish we had a shaman" ever, meanwhile puri is required in every raid ever. Oh you're a cleric that can't or won't play puri? Cya! We don't need a shaman sorry.

    Compare the need as a cleric to learn puri to the need as a warrior to learn liberator. Pretty much if you're a cleric and you don't know how to puri, you will struggle to find any group or raid that will accept you, where as if you're a warrior that can't play liberator, not a big deal, why is that so? Because warriors have more options.

    When your class essentially gets locked into 2 healing souls or bust, then maybe you can understand the pressing demands for more options.

    The only thing I will agree on is rogues getting default 1 sec GCD, yeah that's always struck me as way way way out of field, ever since launch.

    All your other issues though are just flat out wrong. Stop complaining that cleric is finally getting looked at. You should be making threads in your class section like we have, offering input and suggestions, asking for communication, and then waiting patiently. etc etc.
    Last edited by Orochan; 05-25-2016 at 07:26 PM.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dimples View Post
    And Warlord, and Champion and Beastmaster. All melee souls, and all with a 1.5 sec GCD too.

    You've a ranged and a melee spec that has a 1 sec GCD already. Y'all can't even see that DPS wise, you're already ahead of everyone else (from a 1 sec GCD perspective). Well, except for the rogues, but they're the games special snowflakes anyway.
    Technically. Warrior has turn the blade so all their specs can be turned into 1 sec. gcd. They are not play optimally but outside of raiding you don't really need optimal play which makes the class really fun even in PvP. I remember going WL/Para back in 2.6 with 1 sec gcd it was super fun until I got rec'ed by a bugged destructive forces WL because of double dipping. This was pre SL. WL is probably one of the best specs to mimic after since the development process took it through several stages that other souls never went through. Tank to PvP specific Dps to raid specific and it had crazy amounts of viable hybrids throughout the entirety of SL with Paly/WL even able to tank raids and do tons of damage. WL/Champ for PvE, WL/VK for duels(could kill inq and NB), Warpest(OP raid DPS) Etc.
    Last edited by Flashmemory; 05-25-2016 at 07:56 PM.

  12. #57
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    I do not understand why people want to preserve the pet aspect of druid tbh.
    I would rather see the pet aspect dropped completely and remake druid into a cleave/multi target mele dps spec.

    I feel this is missing from the cleric arsenal, a riftblade/nightblade/bladedancer type soul with decent st damage but solid duo/multi target capabilities.


    I also think it would be cool to replace the pets with limited shape changing capabilities.
    They could work similar to Blace Dancer buffs, x seconds duration y seconds cooldown, you are supposed to juggle at least 3 of them while playing.
    Or they could work like Greater Runes, in that they all share a cooldown but add something different.
    They could also replace you abilites with "pet" abilities for the duration to further enhance the experience of being a satyr (or faerie if thats your thing).

    I would rather turn into a badass satyr with a big ax, then have one passively standing next to me, whether he is hitting the target or not, its just so passive and boring.


    Other then that I'm waiting for the servers to come up with the recent changes, they look promising.

  13. #58
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    For those of us who use Druid outside of raids quite extensively - can we possibly have the Greater Healing pet's buff changed to give a slightly more powerful version of the justicar salvation with 5 targets (either including self as one of the five or self +4/5). ie druid attacks heal part members for x (making it accept the buff from the healing crystals would also be nice). This would allow us to continue to be trickle healers - and before the screaming about abuse in raids starts the dps loss of not using the destroyer would be akin to a harbinger speccing chloro point to do splash heals, and amount of healing should be balanced similarly. Wouldn't affect raid ability - and the damage reduction would always be prefereable in a raid where survival was an issue over increased incoming healing anyway

    PS if someone already mentioned this I apologise I didn't have time to read all the posts
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  14.   Click here to go to the next Rift Team post in this thread.   #59
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    Lots of great feedback here. I particularly appreciate the Shaman/Druid comparison comments and intend to address those in a longer reply. (I waned to get these changes built and attend to some bug fixing before digging into that topic.)

    Today's update is much lighter than yesterday's:

    Crushing Force now deals attack damage on the initial hit; If this effect is on the target, the damage bonus from Nature's Edict effect is doubled.

    Resounding Blow now correctly applies a stack of Natural Force

    Since today's PTS update is happening relatively late in the day, I suspect the next substantive round of changes will hit PTS Wednesday of next week due to the long weekend.

    FYI, I have yet to find a change for Thorns of Ire that fits well with the rest of the druid's abilities, and I am currently leaning towards just removing it from the kit.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dev_Orren View Post
    FYI, I have yet to find a change for Thorns of Ire that fits well with the rest of the druid's abilities, and I am currently leaning towards just removing it from the kit.
    I'd say armor debuff since it's the least represented debuff in the game, but Druid probably doesn't have much use of it.

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