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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: So I guess clerics have no dev support anymore.

  1. #1
    Sword of Telara Orochan's Avatar
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    Default So I guess clerics have no dev support anymore.

    This is borderline ridiculous. I will come straight out and say what I'm pretty sure all clerics are thinking.

    There has been no significant communication, nor work on the cleric class since kervik did the inquisitor rework in 3.0. Seriously, just bring kervik back.


    You can argue "oh but we got shaman changes!" No. We didn't. We got number tweaks and fixes, but nothing to address any of the actual issues the class has. Same with healers. Seriously every recent cleric "fix" has been just a number change. Oh, have X ability do Y more damage. It's infuriating.

    Don't get me wrong, I am glad we got attention, but come on, enough is enough

    Where is the druid rework? Defiler rework? Shaman changes? Healer changes so they aren't the only healing classes in the entire game anymore with actual resource to manage?!

    I just saw the thread posted about the elementalist rework for mages, as if they actually need any more dev love. They already have a top ranged, healing, and melee class atm. And one could certainly argue their tank soul is in the #1 spot too. ( though that is not my opinion)

    I am trying my best to avoid typing an emotional, ill thought out response, but again, it's infuriating. To me it seems very obvious no dev likes working on the cleric class, and that is a frustrating thing to feel. Redhawk all but abandoned us, and now keyens is posting 24/7 in the mage forums. And you know what? Good for mages! Awesome! Give them love. Give ALL the classes dev love. That includes clerics.

    That is all.

    /rantoff

  2. #2
    Ascendant ecru's Avatar
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    before red hawk left he did say that he wanted to work eruption of life back into the shaman rotation and move away from the dumb sanction/vex + faith's freedom garbage we've had to use since 3.0 was released but that seems pretty unlikely to happen now.

    edit: the reason i'd like to see sanction/vex change isn't just because it's a cleric mastery and forces you into two specific sub souls while making shaman-specific masteries unavailable, it's because of shaman's reliance on fitting sanction+vex with rotn inside of deep freeze+mb/nonphys/mb during an entire encounter due to the way the deep freeze debuff works and how dots damage is snapshotted inside of lava field.

    it's not easy to do properly and holding off on your rotation can penalize your parse, while pushing too far into it (meaning using or not using massive blow, or sanction, waiting for lava field) can also penalize you, since you don't know exactly when lava field will drop.

    it's just a huge pain in the *** to have to do everything perfectly only to end up barely competitive.
    Last edited by ecru; 05-06-2016 at 03:46 PM.
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    Rift Disciple catpaw's Avatar
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    I'm not that upset about mages getting love, though I do agree the new class dev seems...more involved with them. If you go to the mage discussion forums there's a dev response every other thread, while clerics haven't gotten one in almost a month.

    With regards to Shaman, people can say all they want about dummy parses, but if you go to prancingturtle and look at pretty much any MoM fight, the top 10 parses are dominated by rogues and primalists, with a few clerics and warriors and mages sprinkled in. I think I saw less than 5 clerics in the top 10 for all fights across the board (correct me if I'm wrong). I mean, clerics aren't unplayable by any means, but it just says something that rogues (and now primalists) constantly perform the highest, and have been for a long time.
    Last edited by catpaw; 05-06-2016 at 03:47 PM.

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    Ascendant Sedvick's Avatar
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    It's kind of funny seeing how all the other classes get these big reworks while the most OP spec in the history of Rift (as far as how long it's been broken OP and people have complained about it), Puri, just continues to stay just as-is with no major reform/rework. To make matters worse, instead of hitting the root of the shielding issue, Puri itself, they reword the way shielding works in general, only to make Puri even stronger and not really solve the core of the issue. Poor Clerics, all you get is band-aid fixes and never really get anything solved.

  5. #5
    Sword of Telara Orochan's Avatar
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    Yeah, I'm not upset when any class gets some dev support. I'm only upset because clerics get none, except the numbers tweak I talked about. Band-aid fixes that don't address actual problems.

    And yes I very much want to get away from SH/vex and even Inscribe fate + Seal of Pain if your sub soul is runeshaper. I wish EoL had more presence in the shaman rotation, but we could only get that with a.....

    Druid rework.

    Clerics desperately need some attention. More than any other class atm IMO.

    And yes, I feel like because we have purifier, all our issues are somehow less prioritized than other classes. Like devs just go "lol they have puri, they'll be fine" but we're not fine! Cleric calling is in bad shape.
    Last edited by Orochan; 05-06-2016 at 03:58 PM.

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    Rift Disciple catpaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sedvick View Post
    It's kind of funny seeing how all the other classes get these big reworks while the most OP spec in the history of Rift (as far as how long it's been broken OP and people have complained about it), Puri, just continues to stay just as-is with no major reform/rework. To make matters worse, instead of hitting the root of the shielding issue, Puri itself, they reword the way shielding works in general, only to make Puri even stronger and not really solve the core of the issue. Poor Clerics, all you get is band-aid fixes and never really get anything solved.
    Having such an OP healing soul is half the problem. Being asked to do nothing but Puri in every raid isn't exactly thrilling. I'm not arguing that Puri isn't too strong, but having one OP spec and all the others slightly underperforming pretty much pigeon holes a lot of clerics into being able to only play that (or defiler, on fights where it's needed). I myself, and I'm sure many others, want to be good enough at everything, not amazing at one role and bottom of the barrel on others.

    EDIT: As an aside, I was actually just talking to a friend earlier about Puri, and I feel the reason it's so broken this expansion especially is because of Divine Favor. Puris strictly healing output is poor compared to other healing classes, its job is really shielding. But with Divine Favor you can apply shields AND trigger a large heal on 3 different targets at once. Without Divine Favor I feel Puri wouldn't be nearly as viable as it is now. Nerfing or removing DF for Puri would be a good start, or at least give other classes a similar option (but maybe applies a shield instead of a heal for certain classes that have little to no shielding, like LBV chloro for example).
    Last edited by catpaw; 05-06-2016 at 04:32 PM.

  7.   Click here to go to the next Rift Team post in this thread.   #7
    Director of Community Relations TrionBrasse's Avatar
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    I work with these guys every day, and I can assure you, we haven't magically lost the ONE human on the Dev team who cares about Clerics. All archetypes and souls have to be considered as part of a greater whole and we have plenty of Devs focused on keeping up on balance issues across the board.

    Balance is something that is always under general discussion by Dev, but unless something is SERIOUSLY broken, change is glacial on purpose. It takes time to review, consider and assess. In a game like RIFT with so very many gameplay options, it is almost impossible to balance all classes to be equally #1 in everything as some posters here seem to indicate as a goal.

    That said, I know that Clerics JUST got some changes - it's just that not everyone agrees with those changes. This means we are back to gathering data directly from game as well as continuing to take in feedback from forums and social media.

    You can imagine the outcry if Purifier was suddenly nerfed to bring them back in line with other souls, but raising everyone else's souls to match them would be a monumental undertaking and we'd reach a point where mobs would also require an overhaul to match. It's a game of competing inflation at that point.

    I wouldn't expect sudden and sweeping changes any time soon. Expect occasional tweaks and observation over time.

    I run two Clerics myself, a Shaman and a Druidicar. (Yeah, yeah, I know, I can switch roles - I prefer to go for the different looks and feels for each).
    Brasse

  8. #8
    Sword of Telara Orochan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrionBrasse View Post
    I work with these guys every day, and I can assure you, we haven't magically lost the ONE human on the Dev team who cares about Clerics. All archetypes and souls have to be considered as part of a greater whole and we have plenty of Devs focused on keeping up on balance issues across the board.

    Balance is something that is always under general discussion by Dev, but unless something is SERIOUSLY broken, change is glacial on purpose. It takes time to review, consider and assess. In a game like RIFT with so very many gameplay options, it is almost impossible to balance all classes to be equally #1 in everything as some posters here seem to indicate as a goal.

    That said, I know that Clerics JUST got some changes - it's just that not everyone agrees with those changes. This means we are back to gathering data directly from game as well as continuing to take in feedback from forums and social media.

    You can imagine the outcry if Purifier was suddenly nerfed to bring them back in line with other souls, but raising everyone else's souls to match them would be a monumental undertaking and we'd reach a point where mobs would also require an overhaul to match. It's a game of competing inflation at that point.

    I wouldn't expect sudden and sweeping changes any time soon. Expect occasional tweaks and observation over time.

    I run two Clerics myself, a Shaman and a Druidicar. (Yeah, yeah, I know, I can switch roles - I prefer to go for the different looks and feels for each).
    Brasse
    This is good, don't get me wrong. I appreciate the post, however...

    Where is our druid rework?

    Where is our defiler rework?

    Where are the healing changes?

    Where are the shaman changes?


    At this point if it means our other souls get their much needed attention, yes, please nerf puri to oblivion. You say change is glacial, I understand that, however I feel like change is only glacial for clerics. Other soul changes get pushed out more regularly and faster. This isn't my opinion anymore, it's what's been happening.

    Sentinel and Warden changes, still didn't fix the core issue which is, the only healers left in the game that have severe resource issues are clerics. No other healer ( except maybe chloro? ) has a resource to manage. None. Isn't that a serious problem that needs fixing?

    How about shaman, which is still one of the worst melee classes, again, don't get me wrong, it's a good melee class. I love playing it. BUT! When compared with the other melee classes, it comes behind every single time.

    This also comes back to communication. Elementalist was reworked and keyens communicated it to mages. Where was the communication for wardens and sentinels? I didn't see a dev post it here, that the changes we're on PTS. I check PTS pretty regularly and I didn't even see the changes until they hit live.

    You can't seriously tell us you're paying attention to clerics when we have to form a summoning circle just to get a dev's attention when every other class is getting dev post left and right.

    Warlords just got a rework that's on PTS too. Berserkers for primalist got some PTS buffs/changes.

    You see how frustrating it can feel? There has been so little communication with us clerics. We just want a dev who cares about us really, you say there is one, but I don't see them posting.

    We have a thread devoted to cleric changes and suggestions, why hasn't it been stickied? Why hasn't a dev posted in it? At least letting us know they've read it/seen it.
    Last edited by Orochan; 05-06-2016 at 05:01 PM.

  9. #9
    Rift Disciple catpaw's Avatar
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    It's not that clerics need to be OP at everything, as I said, I just want them to be competitive in other roles besides Puri. And other classes I'm sure want the same. I'm sure rogues and primalists would love to have their healing specs be competitive, and so on. Every class can do every role (well, except primalist), but not every class can do every role very well. I want every class to be able to do every role well enough. If a rogue wants to tank heal a raid, they should be able to without the raid leader having to say "nah we need a Puri," or a cleric wanting to DPS and "nah, we need rogue poisons here." I know this is a large undertaking and I'm not expecting it to happen overnight. But in general it does seems like some classes get more love than others, which is why we get upset. But I do appreciate you taking time to respond and letting us know you haven't completely forgotten about us. :P

  10.   Click here to go to the next Rift Team post in this thread.   #10
    Director of Community Relations TrionBrasse's Avatar
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    Don't give up hope. I wish that we had the money hats to hire bunches of Devs, but the ones we have really do know their stuff. If other classes are changed faster or more often, it's because they were more in need of it in the overall scheme of things.
    Prioritizing task lists for a game of the scope and depth of RIFT is no easy task.

    I also play one each of the other archetypes to make sure I get my full range of flavors, but hey... I always come back to my Clerics because they just feel right to my playstyle.
    Brasse

  11. #11
    RIFT Fan Site Operator Riane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by catpaw View Post
    But with Divine Favor you can apply shields AND trigger a large heal on 3 different targets at once. Without Divine Favor I feel Puri wouldn't be nearly as viable as it is now. Nerfing or removing DF for Puri would be a good start, or at least give other classes a similar option (but maybe applies a shield instead of a heal for certain classes that have little to no shielding, like LBV chloro for example).
    Purifier wouldn't be horrible without Divine Favor--it would just be more painfully obvious who the lazy Clerics are that just do nothing but sit there and spam Ward of Flame over and over again (and never even touch their stacks of Blessing of the Flame or even Faith's Reward.) The sheer shielding Purifier does (alongside Flame of Life) are why Purifier's are still viable. It ain't Divine Favor, I can tell you that right now.

    Edit: But onto your OP, I wouldn't be as harsh as you have been. Yes, Clerics haven't really had the attention given to [healing] souls in a long time. Trust me, I can agree with you there. But to make the abrasive comments, yeouch..
    Last edited by Riane; 05-06-2016 at 06:38 PM.

  12. #12
    Rift Disciple catpaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riane View Post
    Purifier wouldn't be horrible without Divine Favor--it would just be more painfully obvious who the lazy Clerics are that just do nothing but sit there and spam Ward of Flame over and over again (and never even touch their stacks of Blessing of the Flame or even Faith's Reward.) The sheer shielding Purifier does (alongside Flame of Life) are why Purifier's are still viable. It ain't Divine Favor, I can tell you that right now.
    I guess I might have worded that poorly. I didn't mean to imply that Puri would not be viable at all without DF, but it is a big contributor to why Puri is currently overpowered. No matter how lazy or not a cleric is with using their other skills, DF is always going to be their top heal on the meters. The shielding is very strong, the shielding AND heals from DF are too much.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrionBrasse View Post
    Don't give up hope. I wish that we had the money hats to hire bunches of Devs, but the ones we have really do know their stuff. If other classes are changed faster or more often, it's because they were more in need of it in the overall scheme of things.
    Prioritizing task lists for a game of the scope and depth of RIFT is no easy task.

    I also play one each of the other archetypes to make sure I get my full range of flavors, but hey... I always come back to my Clerics because they just feel right to my playstyle.
    Brasse
    Thank you for posting. Now please consider this: Rune shaper as a paid soul, is the only soul released unfinished. Soul tree bug, tool tip error, and most importantly the design of the soul's play style is flawed. Unlike every other new soul. Runeshaper is NOT usable in most situation on competitive level. Even in the situation where it can be used, it has severe limitation to mobility. Now the other souls all have received updates, because they were too good; while there was zero communication regarding runeshaper. Do you see the disparity? Red hawk disliked cleric community' "passive aggression", but omission to cleric souls that we constantly get is the very cause for that.

    There's one aspect I'm not sure trion understands, when a player starts the game, he has no knowledge of a calling's strength and weakness. It's fair to assume every calling can do everything roughly equally well. But for those choose cleric, they will realize that unless they are ok to play the token roles(puri, defiler, Oracle) all the time, they will be at disadvantage if they ever want to dps, because cleric dps souls are always brought up to an even level, then fall behind again when updates are made to other souls. However at that point one has committed so much time into this calling, re-rolling is not practical.

    I fail to see in this example how elementalist's change is more urgent than clerics runeshaper or shaman. In case you don't know what's wrong with shaman, There're plenty posts in cleric forum collecting dust.
    Last edited by Theriene; 05-07-2016 at 12:27 AM.

  14. #14
    RIFT Fan Site Operator Riane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by catpaw View Post
    I guess I might have worded that poorly. I didn't mean to imply that Puri would not be viable at all without DF, but it is a big contributor to why Puri is currently overpowered. No matter how lazy or not a cleric is with using their other skills, DF is always going to be their top heal on the meters. The shielding is very strong, the shielding AND heals from DF are too much.
    Divine Favor is not why Purifier is overpowered. Purifier is "overpowered" because of the spammy nature of the shielding.

    Divine Favor is merely a crutch for bad healers as well as a bandaid for Cleric healing in general. It's the one mastery I loathe as much as Faith's Reward.
    Last edited by Riane; 05-06-2016 at 07:52 PM.

  15. #15
    Sword of Telara Orochan's Avatar
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    Shielding/warding will always be favored more than just healing because you can only heal someone to 100% and that's it.

    Shielding becomes more desired when mobs can one shot players, such as in raids. In every MMO I have ever played, as far as desired healers went, the ones who could shield/ward were always top picks. This is just the nature of the beast.

    It's a hard problem to tackle properly, and there's no real balanced way to do it, unless you make every healer be able to shield.

    However with that being said, it really does feel like clerics are on the backburner here. Elementalist is a pet class, and trion is telling us that has more priority than cleric issues. I'd wager that clerics are the least played calling currently in Rift, and if that's the case, I'd wager again that it's because it's the calling with the least amount of support and communication from the devs. Hard to play a class that consistently gets told "we're working on other things right now"

    Not to mention we're the only calling with zero viable hybrids because of what happened in vanilla Rift.
    Last edited by Orochan; 05-06-2016 at 08:00 PM.

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