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Thread: Suggestions for some Cleric changes

  1. #1
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    Default Suggestions for some Cleric changes

    I have been playing around with all cleric specs now for several months.
    I am sure there are more clerics out there with some suggestions on how to make our soul more engaging and fun to play. As we don't currently have a active suggestion thread I thought I would make one.


    So to start it off, this is what I suggest:

    Defiler:
    The spec we all seem to love to hate. Defiler is the best example of "bring the class, not the player" in this game.

    Defiler has several issues, and while we have been promised some major changes in the "long term", some quick and easy changes would be welcome in the "short term" as well.

    The problem with Defiler is (as I see it at least):

    Very boring gameplay
    The most common Defiler spec is currently the Druid/Inq variant. This spec is pretty much down to a 2 button rotation. In order to do max dps you need seperate keys for certain abilities, but with the low numbers defiler brings, the difference is minimal. Opening the soul to more diverse spec would make it more engaging and fun to play

    Stuck as a half healer, half dps
    When half your abilities are healing and the other half dps, it limits your potential to do either. The talents share this problem, where about half of them are pretty much pointless for most boss fights. And while the healing aspect of it is useful in NTE's and to a certain extent PvP, we already have 3 full healing souls and do not need 3 and 1/2.

    Unstable Transformation
    In most cases where you need to use Defiler, you need to get Unstable Transformation. This forces you to go 61 points and limits your hybrid potential. Defiler could be the perfect soul to hybrid.

    I am sure there are other problems, and I am sure some of you don't see these as problems at all.


    As a solution for these problems I suggest the following:

    Make Unstable Transformation the 41 point talent
    This would open up the soul to several different viable hybrids. With the 20% link still requiring a big investment, it would still be possible to go 61 to get more mitigation.

    Change the damage modifiers from death damage to all damage
    This would again help with some hybrid options. Currently most talents from Defiler only really work with cabalist, and that soul has it's own problems.

    Remove some of the healing utility and replace them with damage
    This might be unpopular with some PvPers, but for PvE and raiding in particular, the healing abilities are just sitting there on the bar looking pretty. They are to weak and mana intensive to be useful.

    A more thorough rework to make it into damage dealer
    Would be a bigger change, and will likely not happen. But as Defiler is a unique soul, I feel it should be changed into a mobile ranged dps soul, or a cleave oriented ranged soul. There are no other souls quite like Defiler in that you 100% need a cleric to play it.



    Cabalist:

    The problem with Cabalist is not quite as clear cut. The soul itself works quite nice.
    The problem lies in the fact that its damage is too reliant on targets dying at different times.

    Currently Cabalist is used mainly for it's ability to cc several targets for an extended time.



    The changes I suggest to Cabalist are:

    Change Obliteration abilites into base abilities
    This would allow specs like Defiler to go into Cabalist and pick up some aoe damage, while also gaining some instant cast st damage.

    Make Shackles of Faith base
    Tyranny of Death is the main damage ability, and spreading it with Bound Faith should be a base ability. This can be replaced by a talent increasing the damage of Tyranny of death by 15/30% while nerfing its base damage by the same amount, to balance the change.

    Remove Tyranny of Death blowing up when the target is damaged by Tyranny of Death
    Offset this by increasing the damage of Tyranny of Death.

    Move the cc lower in the root tree
    As Cabalist is mainly used for its utility, having the cc abilities all at 40+ points forces you to go full Cabalist in most cases. Changing them down by about 10 points would allow you to pick them up and still do decent st dps. If you move Obliteration up a few points, you would still have to go "full" Cabalist if your main purpose is to bring heavy aoe damage.

    Change some abilities and talents in fire damage
    Changing some abilities and talents into dealing and increasing death and fire damage would help with adding some aoe to Runeshaper and make fire a more integrated part of our class.


    It is harder to make suggestions to change Cabalist, as I quite like the soul. But I feel like its just a cc bot, and would like to see it turned more into a aoe damage soul with "some" utility.


    Warden:

    The recent mana changes made Warden a lot more viable.
    But there are still some issues I think should be fixed.

    The problems with Warden (as I see it at least)

    So many stacks!
    With Soothing Stream and Dangers of the Deep that's a minimum of 5 gcd per minute just to keep them active. And that is assuming you refresh them as late as possible. If either of these fall off, it takes 5 gcds to build up Dangers of the Deep and 4 to build up Soothing Stream. And the lost healing will quickly result in deaths.

    Low damage
    For a healing soul that is so reliant on dealing damage, it brings very low damage to the table. Add that to the lack of a raid cd and you have a problem. I understand this is a problem Warden share with Liberator, but that does not mean it is not a problem.

    Reliance on cd's
    This is also not a Warden only problem so to say. But with several long cooldowns and no way to aoe heal passively (outside of Healing Flood), you are stuck casting heals on a 1.5 second gcd. Not a very reliable way to heal.

    Changes I suggest:

    Reduce number of stacks:
    This has been suggested before, and will be suggested again. Reduce the number of Dangers of the Deep stacks to 3, keep the same bonus as now, but make it easier to build up if it falls off. Reduce Soothing Stream to 3 stacks as well.

    Either increase the damage, or add a raid cooldown
    I have to say I am not a fan of adding a raid cooldown to warden. But increasing the damage up to at least Chloromancer levels should be done.
    That way you would have:
    • 1 sustained healer with good damage and raid cooldown
    • 1 sustained healer with shields and raid cooldown
    • 1 burst healer with good damage
    • 1 burst healer with mitigation and shield cooldowns.

    Change the cooldowns to hit 20 targets:
    Changing the cooldowns to hit 20 targets would give us a niche to fill in the raid. It would not help the lackluster sustained healing, but at least give us the ability to heal everyone when needed.

    Give Warden a SP talent on tier 1
    Move the mana cost reduction up and give Warden a SP (or wisdom) boost in tier 1 like other souls.

    Warden, like Cabalist, is hard to suggest changes to. I quite like healing as Warden, but would like to have a good reason to play it more. Mages and Rogues are just too good compared to Clerics on most fights.
    Last edited by Pretoi; 04-28-2016 at 07:35 AM.

  2. #2
    RIFT Fan Site Operator Riane's Avatar
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    Make Unstable Transformation the 41 point talent
    That is not a good idea at all given how strong UT is.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riane View Post
    That is not a good idea at all given how strong UT is.
    41 points in Defiler is still a hefty investment in Defiler. And any spec with UT will be a Defiler spec.

    So I fail to see how that would be a problem. It is not a perfect permanent solution, but it is a quick fix while we wait for a more permanent change.

    It could be given a nerf in PvP to avoid making 41 Defiler the go to spec for PvP.
    It could also be given a 60 second debuff, so you dont stack several Defilers (not that you would anyway).

    But I do agree that unstable is strong, and should be removed in the future.
    Last edited by Pretoi; 04-28-2016 at 12:03 PM.

  4. #4
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    Interesting ideas, however - Defiler can only really be given a proper overhaul when the content is adjusted no not need it - hybrid defiler just opens up a whole world of potential PVP abuse. I would suggest despite the frustration that if its going to be reworked from the ground up when we get new content and don't need it any more - great, otherwise changes to make its playstyle (as part of its own soul) more fun rather than hybridisation options would be preferable. (although hybrids are fun since the new 61 point meta the balance for hybrids is VERY hard to get right as every time you change a point anywhere it can have massively unexpected consequences, so TRION seem to be pushing mainly for 61 point builds as 'best')

    Cabalists main problem isn't that it doesn't have all its shiny things below 15 points to make it good to use as an off soul in PVP, its main issue is that its primary damage mechanic relies on enemies dying - ie on large numbers of low health mobs. Try it out on a defence IA and you'll see how it was designed to work. Sadly again content no longer favours this mechanic. AOE DPS needs more deaths OR a change to what triggers Tyranny to go off early - maybe mob being at half health should do it? I don't have a good answer to how it can be easily fixed (unless you just increase its base damage to compensate for lack of deaths - but this would need to be put high tree of deep root to STOP people just grabbing massively powerful AOE for free in a ST soul)

    And as for warden - it does a lot more DPS since the last patch - still a balance between DPS and Throughput heals, but in iGP at present I'm managing 22K sustained over the first and fourth boss.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunrar View Post
    Interesting ideas, however - Defiler can only really be given a proper overhaul when the content is adjusted no not need it - hybrid defiler just opens up a whole world of potential PVP abuse. I would suggest despite the frustration that if its going to be reworked from the ground up when we get new content and don't need it any more - great, otherwise changes to make its playstyle (as part of its own soul) more fun rather than hybridisation options would be preferable. (although hybrids are fun since the new 61 point meta the balance for hybrids is VERY hard to get right as every time you change a point anywhere it can have massively unexpected consequences, so TRION seem to be pushing mainly for 61 point builds as 'best')

    Cabalists main problem isn't that it doesn't have all its shiny things below 15 points to make it good to use as an off soul in PVP, its main issue is that its primary damage mechanic relies on enemies dying - ie on large numbers of low health mobs. Try it out on a defence IA and you'll see how it was designed to work. Sadly again content no longer favours this mechanic. AOE DPS needs more deaths OR a change to what triggers Tyranny to go off early - maybe mob being at half health should do it? I don't have a good answer to how it can be easily fixed (unless you just increase its base damage to compensate for lack of deaths - but this would need to be put high tree of deep root to STOP people just grabbing massively powerful AOE for free in a ST soul)

    And as for warden - it does a lot more DPS since the last patch - still a balance between DPS and Throughput heals, but in iGP at present I'm managing 22K sustained over the first and fourth boss.
    Yes, Defiler needs a major overhaul. But in its current state its horrible to play and should be given a quick fix while we wait. Adding some PvP specific nerfs on certain Defiler abilities (Unstable/links) wont be hard.

    I suggested the on Cabalist, "Remove Tyranny of Death blowing up when the target is damaged by Tyranny of Death". This is what makes it reliant on mobs dying as one dead mob=all of em blow up. And having the Obliterations lower in the tree and Bound Faith spread Tyranny of Death (while reducing the base damage) is not having everything under 15 points. It is still going to require a solid investment to do any real aoe dps. This would just allow clerics to spec into cabalist to gain "some" aoe like mages can spec into stormcaller.

    The biggest problem I have with Cabalist is something I forgot to mention:

    The ramp up time to get started on Cabalist is way to high. Make Well of Souls into a self buff might help this (note: keep it where it is in the tree, just reduce the ramp up time to start doing some dmg)

    And as for Warden, yes you do more dmg, but you would still not use a warden on most fights. You would only use it where you have to. 3 healing souls, and only 1 1/2 is usable in raids is weak.

  6. #6
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    Problem is Cleric already has 3 healing soul and defiler is between healing/dps and low support.
    Cleric's soul dont have nicely tool or good tree under 15, so hybriding is bad.
    This game is focus on pve's metagme and more for Cleric's soul.


    Defiler:
    doing a pure Heal support :

    A good up without change a lot of thing would be to change His Gcd could be a 1s gcd, he has too much thing to put on his target and he cant heal without waiting 3s.
    Ad a % random passive to cleanse a debuff of his target with heal ( hot maybe).
    Ad a +% healing on defiler heal on his target's links.
    Ad more dps skill or support but doing something his gameplay is boring cuz of gcd.

    doing a Dps support with a bit chloro's mecanic
    Forget 3 stack healing or hot.
    Ad more support or dps who can easely give stack on target s'link
    For now, healing is low, dps is really low, and healing with spell so random and low.
    Last edited by Comalies; 04-29-2016 at 06:47 AM.

  7. #7
    Sword of Telara Orochan's Avatar
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    Shaman :

    Numbing Cold :

    Would love to see this become a CC ability. Currently it reduces healing in pvp, but it's pretty useless in that regard tbh.

    Jolt :

    I think jolt could use an increase in damage, it just feels underwhelming to me considering first you have to get a crit ( easy with MB, but still ) Perhaps we could get rid of the crit mechanic tied to jolt altogether and add something new in it's place.

    Glacial Strike :
    Only thing I'd like to see would be Glacial strike being able to be used during Deep Freeze regardless of HP of target.

    Ekkehard's Grasp :
    I don't get why this isn't considered a weapon attack. It's very out of place, and it shouldn't need a mastery to apply frostbite either. I never use this, not even for disconnects.

    Vengeance of the Primal North :
    Since this is no longer buffed by Frozen Wrath, I feel it's another wasted ability for shaman, I don't think it does more dps, even with 5 enemies, than our ST vengeance, because of the Frozen Wrath buff. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong though.

    Snowbank :

    This could be better if it was an OGCD pull + snare, it's somewhat useful in pvp, but requiring a GCD makes it a tough choice to use IMO. At the very least it needs to be OGCD imo.

    All in all I feel like shamans are in an alright place, but could use some tuning up of certain mechanics. I think they could use a second CC, or a second charge for pvp purposes, and I feel like jolt could be reworked so it has more importance in the rotation aside from applying frostbite.
    Last edited by Orochan; 05-01-2016 at 01:05 AM.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orochan View Post

    Vengeance of the Primal North :
    Since this is no longer buffed by Frozen Wrath, I feel it's another wasted ability for shaman, I don't think it does more dps, even with 5 enemies, than our ST vengeance, because of the Frozen Wrath buff. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong though.

    Here you go (8)
    Last edited by Trauumhaft; 05-01-2016 at 04:37 AM.

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    Sword of Telara Orochan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trauumhaft View Post
    So on pure AOE it pulls ahead. Interesting to see and thank you for testing that and then showing the data.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orochan View Post
    So on pure AOE it pulls ahead. Interesting to see and thank you for testing that and then showing the data.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orochan View Post
    Shaman :

    Jolt :

    I think jolt could use an increase in damage, it just feels underwhelming to me considering first you have to get a crit ( easy with MB, but still ) Perhaps we could get rid of the crit mechanic tied to jolt altogether and add something new in it's place.
    This is the biggest thing for me. Anything that requires a proc to use viably should do more damage than it currently does. It does not do significantly more damage than Icy Blow even when buffed, which makes it feels barely worth using considering it needs to be managed outside of a macro due to the nature of the skill. I mean truthfully it's not that hard to manage and I still do it, but it feels just... not rewarding.

  12. #12
    Telaran ChinaPandaMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by catpaw View Post
    This is the biggest thing for me. Anything that requires a proc to use viably should do more damage than it currently does. It does not do significantly more damage than Icy Blow even when buffed, which makes it feels barely worth using considering it needs to be managed outside of a macro due to the nature of the skill. I mean truthfully it's not that hard to manage and I still do it, but it feels just... not rewarding.
    Shaman currently in the game have a lot of problems.

    The problem you mentioned about Jolt can be summarized into one major problem which was what I suggested Red Hawk to look at before he made Massive Blow 100% crit.

    What is the problem? Currently Shaman's DPS relys on its "hard hitter". However majority of those hard hitters are leaning towards the phys side, stuffs like MB, PS, CE. In contrast on the non-phys side the only one you get is Glacial Strike, which is not usable until sub 30%.

    When a spec that's intended to do hybrid type of damage but its DPS is completely dominated by one type of the two, we have a problem, especially, in this case for Shaman, phys damage doesn't scale as well as non-phys damage due to how raid buffs work.


    This is the first problem. A lot of things can be and could have been done with this one. Triggering GS earlier is one I can think of on top of my head, in which I did suggest them to do that before the MB buff. However buffing Jolt, or even, Lightning Hammer could also be a valid deal.

    The second problem is disconnect. Shaman's disconnect dealers are GOD AWFUL compare to other specs'. EG is not worth using unless you are 20m or further even if it triggers Frostbite. Without Vengeance its base damage is just too low to make it worth the 30% gain on Fervent Strike.

    The third problem is lack of utilities, which has been brought up by a lot of PVPers in the game so I won't go too deep into it. Shaman's utilities are trash tier compare to other melees even in a PVE scenario.

    Last but not the least, Shaman has lots of bugs that have not been fixed yet. I will list two major ones of the many.

    Register/Weapon Animation bug during Deep Freeze: This one has been a long known problem for Shaman. Although warriors complain the same about Alacrity, Screwing up during a 3s CD block is much more punishing than screwing up a 10s CD block. Basically if your Deep Freeze block is MB -> RS -> Jolt/GS -> MB, the second MB always have a very iffy chance of not inheriting the bonuses from DF.

    Some people have claimed that this is a weapon animation problem with two-handers, However there are three reasons that Convinced me that this is a register problem.

    1) If I switch to MB -> Jolt/GS -> PS, this is NEVER a problem, even if sometimes I'm a little bit slower due to reasons (by point a couple second).

    2) I have done some testing with this bug by making a kalert for DF duration. And there were CLEAR cases where the damage bonuses did not inherit while my kalert is still up, no matter how late I push DF into GCD.

    3) The testing I have done in 2), were done by using both two-hander and one- hand off-hand.

    To solve this is pretty simple. Make DF last for 3.5s, or even, 3.1s.

    The second bug is not as punishing and/or notable by others compare to the previous one. However the VoWS triggered by PS, does not get the 100% damage increase from FW because PS refreshes it. I understand PS refreshes FW so when you push PS the previous FW is kinda "gone" but still there should be better ways of implementing this.

    TL;DR. Shaman needs a lot of love.
    Last edited by ChinaPandaMan; 05-02-2016 at 12:16 PM. Reason: stuffs
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    deep freeze already lasts for 3.2s i believe. at 3.5s i think i may able to squeeze four attacks in.

    i'd like to see shaman get more mobility, not necessarily utility. another charge and 7-10% passive run speed would really help a lot, since we don't get a grasping/phantom blades mechanic. with the upcoming warlord changes it would be great to have tools that help us stay in melee a bit better.

    playing harb is really eye opening. two stuns, both usable from 30m, phantom blades, phase step, a snare that does damage, passive run speed and two forms of run speed both on a shorter cooldown, etc. melee is just much easier and much safer in general compared to shaman.
    Last edited by ecru; 05-02-2016 at 12:56 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ecru View Post
    deep freeze already lasts for 3.2s i believe. at 3.5s i think i may able to squeeze four attacks in.

    i'd like to see shaman get more mobility, not necessarily utility. another charge and 7-10% passive run speed would really help a lot, since we don't get a grasping/phantom blades mechanic. with the upcoming warlord changes it would be great to have tools that help us stay in melee a bit better.

    playing harb is really eye opening. two stuns, both usable from 30m, phantom blades, phase step, a snare that does damage, passive run speed and two forms of run speed both on a shorter cooldown, etc. melee is just much easier and much safer in general compared to shaman.
    I definitely know the feels bro, paragon is rediculous in comparison to shaman. Paragon has all the utility and cc that the shaman could ever wish for + ranged burst and unpredictable 40-50k+ damage in 1 gcd.

    Time to reroll. Any other class other than cleric. lol.

    not to mention you can kill 2-4 people in one alacrity
    Last edited by Xclvsive; 05-03-2016 at 08:25 AM.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xclusivee View Post
    Time to reroll. Any other class other than cleric. lol.
    sums it up pretty well.

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