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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: Shaman Changes!

  1. #31
    RIFT Guide Writer fufi's Avatar
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    Nerfs were applied since that parse. Ice Zerker is nerfed and dances were fixed.

    I will gladly believe you if you can have someone produce such a parse over a 6minutes duration (ending before big CDs), with strictly test gear or strictly live gear (no combination), and no consumables of any kind.



    Edit : The person producing the parse will have to take a photo in front of their computer (where you can read the parse obviously) with the journal of the day (to prove it's the latest build), and a have a snail on top of a frog on their head.
    Last edited by fufi; 10-05-2015 at 01:37 PM.
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  2. #32
    Ascendant Flashmemory's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fufi View Post
    Nerfs were applied since that parse. Ice Zerker is nerfed and dances were fixed.

    I will gladly believe you if you can have someone produce such a parse over a 6minutes duration (ending before big CDs), with strictly test gear or strictly live gear (no combination), and no consumables of any kind..
    Gery said that Shaman and Rogue is doing nearly the same dps which is about 100K. Ecru posted 2 parses. Now its your turn to prove yourself not cleric. I don't know why you are here anyway if you don't want to share parses. Just because you are afraid to be proven wrong? I think so. Post your dps with test and live gear and we can see if you are right. Isn't it that easy? I really think we are going off topic. I even admitted I may be wrong. And I don't give a f if I am because they don't release this information about nerfs or pts change so they are depending on a few people to come correct.

    I didn't know zerker effected sin as much or it was nerfed. I am also assuming you are itemized correctly for min/maxing sin and paragon as well right? I know for paragon parses you have to look at gear explicitly because I know a lot of warriors run reaver and use physical crit which paragon doesn't need.
    Last edited by Flashmemory; 10-05-2015 at 02:33 PM.

  3. #33
    RIFT Guide Writer fufi's Avatar
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    I think you mistake me for a non-cleric.

    It seems I didn't bother uploading screenshots, but I did 3 parses yesterday, first at 98k, 2nd and 3rd at 99k. I won't bother wasting another hour producing the same results I've claimed and that are the same as ecru's.


    On a sidenote, we went Murdantix tonight to get a feeling of Primalist, and two of our shamans were dominating the parse before we wiped to stupid. I guess the non-clerics were all lowballing though.
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  4. #34
    Ascendant Flashmemory's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fufi View Post
    I think you mistake me for a non-cleric.

    It seems I didn't bother uploading screenshots, but I did 3 parses yesterday, first at 98k, 2nd and 3rd at 99k. I won't bother wasting another hour producing the same results I've claimed and that are the same as ecru's.


    On a sidenote, we went Murdantix tonight to get a feeling of Primalist, and two of our shamans were dominating the parse before we wiped to stupid. I guess the non-clerics were all lowballing though.
    I just want to see the rogue parses since somehow it is all kept a tight secret in that community. At least cleric mages and warriors are forth coming. It is all he said she said in the rogue forums. By the way I don't have a problem admitting I am wrong. I do agree cleric had a scaling problem but I never looked at it from your perspective. Or because of the constant pts changes with 0 knowledge of them going toward the community those problems just turn on there head and become a different issue.

    It is like all of a sudden rogues came in cleric forum to say hi, we just got nerfed so you are fine where you are in the food chain. Thanks and bye.

    I still think there is the cleave and range issue. And also, at least in PvP, rogues usually perform better than clerics on all fronts including healing.

    The trust starts dwindling when the person isn't clear. Just like when the dude said rogue/paragon parse same as cleric. Then we see a 94K vs. paragon parsed 98K+ a couple weeks ago. Then all of a sudden everyone comes in to say he meant with BIS live gear. That has to be the derpiest comparison with almost no one able to test/confirm but the top few guilds. We don't even know the itemization of T3 and what it brings. Only that it suppose to be much further ahead of T1 to T2. I honestly don't care about live gear parse. Just T3 to T3 box gear. And T3 box should be comparative to top end live gear. Maybe T2 box to T3 box is an even better comparison for scaling purposes?
    Last edited by Flashmemory; 10-06-2015 at 06:50 PM.

  5. #35
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    Here's a couple of assassin parses in live gear, I don't have parses in test gear because it's useless.
    http://imgur.com/a/SZHJI

    Ice Zerker used to affect Debilitating Dart. In these parses that would have been 207 hits of 4200 extra damage multiplied by 1.45 to account for crit for 1.7k dps lost. Assassin also starts with stealth which means an extra jagged strike so the beginning is always inflated which shows in short parses. If I did a 4-5 minute parse with old ice zerker and had good rng it could have been around 105k but that's not where the average dps is.

    NB/Sin is parsing lower in the dummy foundry but in a raid situation it catches up since it gets dps from verse of joy and has a noticeable dps increase below 30%.

  6. #36
    RIFT Guide Writer fufi's Avatar
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    Definitely not agreeing with all your points there. But everyone claiming the sky is falling on Shaman is wrong. Clerics have 99 problems but shaman ain't one.

    On a sidenote : there are daily changes to rogues and primalist for almost a week now, and some to harbingers too. I agree it would help these changes were more public, but they are there.

    Edit : post was addressed to Flashmemory.
    Last edited by fufi; 10-05-2015 at 03:03 PM.
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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by fufi View Post
    Definitely not agreeing with all your points there. But everyone claiming the sky is falling on Shaman is wrong. Clerics have 99 problems but shaman ain't one.

    On a sidenote : there are daily changes to rogues and primalist for almost a week now, and some to harbingers too. I agree it would help these changes were more public, but they are there.

    Edit : post was addressed to Flashmemory.
    obviously shaman is not the worst soul in rift but it does need a considerable amount of help to put it on par with nearly every other single target dps soul in rift outside of a dummy-parse raid environment.

    i outlined a lot of a lot of what could change here - http://forums.riftgame.com/game-disc...ml#post5125978
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  8. #38
    RIFT Guide Writer fufi's Avatar
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    In my opinion the problem doesn't lie within Shaman, but with everything getting disonnect tools and such. Grasping the Horizon and Phantom Blades are cancers. I would gladly go back to the ages of "you're a melee, so you are in melee" and "you are ranged, so you stand there and cast".

    QoL after QoL after QoL for everyone have ruined the frontier between melee and range. Clerics are pretty much left the only calling respecting these terms. I can't argue against the fact that Shaman is already behind other callings when it comes to disconnect (except maybe assassin), but I can't help but feel like Shaman's disconnect is where melee disconnect should be at : weak.

    I'm speaking strictly PvE here by the way. I've given up on IG PvP a long time ago.
    Last edited by fufi; 10-05-2015 at 03:15 PM.
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  9. #39
    Ascendant ecru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fufi View Post
    In my opinion the problem doesn't lie within Shaman, but with everything getting disonnect tools and such. Grasping the Horizon and Phantom Blades are cancers. I would gladly go back to the ages of "you're a melee, so you are in melee" and "you are ranged, so you stand there and cast".

    QoL after QoL after QoL for everyone have ruined the frontier between melee and range. Clerics are pretty much left the only calling respecting these terms. I can't argue against the fact that Shaman is already behind other callings when it comes to disconnect (except maybe assassin), but I can't help but feel like Shaman's disconnect is where melee disconnect should be at : weak.

    I'm speaking strictly PvE here by the way. I've given up on IG PvP a long time ago.
    i did sorta suggest the same thing in my post. i do think shaman disconnect capability and cleaving is more than fine and my suggestions for utility were basically some defensive cd's and a root because i feel like the cc has gotten really out of hand in pvp, but it seems like we've been headed in this direction for quite awhile. para seems to be getting some better cleaving capability soon, and 61nb was never the soul you used for single target encounters during SL, but ice zerker changed that and now it's mostly accepted among rogues that it needs to be right up there. it seemed like we were headed in the opposite direction during late SL when vengeance of the primal north was nerfed, but i guess that has changed.

    honestly at this point it wouldn't surprise me to see 61sin get better disconnect capability and some cleaving sometime in the near future to fit in with the crowd too.
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  10. #40
    RIFT Guide Writer fufi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fufi View Post
    Definitely not agreeing with all your points there.
    I meant "Definitely not disagreeing" there (few posts ago). I was tired I guess
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  11. #41
    Plane Walker Axarion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fufi View Post
    In my opinion the problem doesn't lie within Shaman, but with everything getting disonnect tools and such. Grasping the Horizon and Phantom Blades are cancers. I would gladly go back to the ages of "you're a melee, so you are in melee" and "you are ranged, so you stand there and cast".

    QoL after QoL after QoL for everyone have ruined the frontier between melee and range. Clerics are pretty much left the only calling respecting these terms. I can't argue against the fact that Shaman is already behind other callings when it comes to disconnect (except maybe assassin), but I can't help but feel like Shaman's disconnect is where melee disconnect should be at : weak.

    I'm speaking strictly PvE here by the way. I've given up on IG PvP a long time ago.
    Can only agree with these statements. It's unlikely that nerfs to other classes ability to handle disconnects is going to happen. And to quote myself from another thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by Axarion View Post
    Arguing with pure numbers on standstill fights is pretty pointless. Clerics are not that far behind on pure standstill fights or pure melee fights. But we lose the most dps by far if this is not the case, which is a bigger issue than doing slightly less dps.

    Inquisitor loses around 33% damage on the primary (BoR vs BoJ), can't use channels while moving and has to break casts for sudden movements. Movement often means pushing back channels which throws off the whole rotation thanks to lowering cds of other channels when using a channel.
    -> Give Inq the ability to move while channeling as an ability with a 1min cd, increase BoJ damage

    Shaman can only refresh dots and use Punishing Strike from range otherwise you are stuck with Ekkehard's or Fervent. Meanwhile Harb, Paragon (and NB with slight losses) just laugh at disconnects for less than 15s.
    -> Increase Shaman damage from range, or add more ranged abilities, or clone the Harb dc yet again (since nerfing the other classes won't happen anyways)
    Since class balance does not happen in a void, it has to be compared to other classes, so either we bring clerics up towards the new 'meta' or drag everyone else down.

  12. #42
    RIFT Guide Writer fufi's Avatar
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    I would advocate option 2, but I guess I'm still a realist and will sadly lobby for option 1 for the time being.
    I really hope comes 4.0 we will see some drastic back to basics across all callings.
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  13. #43
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    The biggest problem with shaman dps is the non-physical side of the rotation. This has been the case since forever. I could dig up my old posts on this, but meh. This "buff", and the similar one previously are nothing but a short term fix, it is not touch the underlying issue.

    The overall SP scaling issue touched on earlier is another major issue that has existed forever and it would be nice if it was addressed.
    Last edited by Sencas; 10-06-2015 at 07:35 AM.
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  14. #44
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    Really full-contact melee ST isn't the main issue of shaman. that would be its relatively bad disconnect dps and ****ty cleave.
    So comparing ST dummy parses doesn't really do the issue justice. Paragon and harb have very high ranged dps for 50% of the time while Shaman has rather low ranged dps for 100% of the time. (No idea about rogues so will not talk about that). However, in a fight where you are disconnected for more than 50% of the time you will not play a melee spec, and in any other fights, the other specs will deal vastly better with the disconnects. I personally don't think buffs like phantom blades / grasping should exist, but if they do, then all callings should get something comparable.
    Cleave is also quite bad compared to what harb, NB, or the upcoming riftblade have.
    So yeah, I wouldn't really care about ST buffs as long as we get those two things adressed instead.
    Last edited by Athanil; 10-06-2015 at 08:59 AM.
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  15.   Click here to go to the next Rift Team post in this thread.   #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sencas View Post
    The biggest problem with shaman dps is the non-physical side of the rotation. This has been the case since forever. I could dig up my old posts on this, but meh. This "buff", and the similar one previously are nothing but a short term fix, it is not touch the underlying issue.

    The overall SP scaling issue touched on earlier is another major issue that has existed forever and it would be nice if it was addressed.
    Hi guys,

    The buff you're all discussing is really a bugfix. Most Shaman attacks had base damage (not scaling values) that skewed a little low for our damage formula. When I generated Shaman mana changes, the damage values also changed as the script corrected this issue. This is why what you're seeing is a baseline value buff to attacks, and not a gameplay-targeted change to talents or root abilities. Because this was a base value (and not a scaling) buff, it looks like less the better-geared your test character is.

    On PTS, Shaman has been parsing very competitively with other melee DPS specs. It does suffer from fights that don't work well with its cooldown timing, though, and certainly has some other usability issues. We can certainly stand to improve both Shaman and Inquisitor DPS - in the short term I'm going to be increasing the value on Diversify up to 3% per stack, which is also small, but should help both specs keep on par. Also in 3.4, Soul Stream gains a Spellpower scaling ratio as part of a fix to all the Stream/Variation masteries to give them parity, which will further help Inquisitor stay afloat.

    Game balance in MMOs is a neverending battle to solve a multi-hundred variable equation, but we will keep soldiering on in our efforts to keep all callings close to equal in their ability to contribute to raids as the role the player wants to play.

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