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Thread: Bolt of Judgment and Bolt of Retribution

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    Ascendant Snap's Avatar
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    Default Bolt of Judgment and Bolt of Retribution

    Serious question here. Sorry if it was already asked.

    If my maths are right, with archon/bm cast time reduction, Bolt of Retribution DPS beats out on Bolt of Judgment DPS.

    Should Bolt of Retribution be used over Bolt of Judgment? Or does having more Depravity make Judgment still better?
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    Also, is aggressive renewal worth using at any point in a rotation?
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    As of right now on live Agressive Renewal is not worth casting and with Spiritual Scrutiny on BoJ becomes better because of the buff making it instant, Only time you should use BoR is when you have Echoing Concord stacks,,,,,this will be changing once the nice lovely changes on PTS come to live

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    When the original changes to Spiritual Scrutiny were first released on PTS over a year ago Byona and I ran some math regarding these two. The thing to consider with BoJ is that you get more BoD procs over time because it is 1s vs 1.3s per life bolt. I don't have my notes from that time but I remember BoJ being an increase.

    It's totally possible that gear scaling has changed this. I would need to re-test.
    Last edited by Ahov; 10-14-2014 at 01:03 PM.

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    RIFT Guide Writer fufi's Avatar
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    On live with my current gear (T3for the most):
    BoR on average does 12444
    BoJ on average does 10370
    BoD on average does 14635 (*1.45 for SoC) -> 21220

    2*BoR + 3*BoJ + BoD -> 77218 over 6 seconds -> 12869 dps
    5*BoR + BoD -> 83440 over 6.9 seconds (3 casts at 1 second and another 3 at 1.3) -> 12092 dps
    Thus, currently on live, BoR is only worth casting with EC, even with the cast time reduction.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fufi View Post
    On live with my current gear (T3for the most):
    BoR on average does 12444
    BoJ on average does 10370
    BoD on average does 14635 (*1.45 for SoC) -> 21220

    2*BoR + 3*BoJ + BoD -> 77218 over 6 seconds -> 12869 dps
    5*BoR + BoD -> 83440 over 6.9 seconds (3 casts at 1 second and another 3 at 1.3) -> 12092 dps
    Thus, currently on live, BoR is only worth casting with EC, even with the cast time reduction.
    Where does the 3 casts at 1 second come from?
    I'll take it as a typo.

    But, in all reality, when you throw Nysyrs and SH into the mix, it will change the number of potential BoJ's and BoR's out the window, AKA there are times where you'll have 6 stacks of cast time reduction when using C/D's.

    How big of a factor does that play into the BoJ/BoR equation. Also what about latency/lag issues and ability queing?
    Last edited by Zehne; 10-14-2014 at 09:21 AM.

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    I'm not sure what's going on, but in your t3 gear, your values are significantly different than mine. Maybe you didn't have your buffs up when you took BoJ values, but in my mostly t2ish gear(Coruscating stone applied, only self buffs);

    BoJ 8621 avg dmg(instant cast) or 10536(w/o scrutiny)
    -i'm going to assume you used dmg values w/o scrutiny, and cast times with scrutiny (tsk tsk)
    BoR 12642 avg
    BoD 148825 avg (x1.45) = 21579

    Now, doing the same math as above:
    2BoR + 3 BoJ +BoD= 72728 dmg over 6 seconds =12121dps
    5BoR + BoD= 84794 dmg over 6.9 sec = 12288 dps

    using the same cast time values, and the correct BoJ values, the BoR hard casts + BoD actually win out.

    In a nearly 3min long fight, I cast BoD 18 times. So, assume i had 36 stacks. I casted BoR 48 times(no BoJ's for me), so that means i hard casted BoR 12 times.

    12 hard casts=12*1.3=15.6 seconds. in reality, we'll say i had 2 BoD's in that time span, so it's 12 BoR's +2 BoD's in a 17.6 sec time span.

    In the same time span, replacing hard casted BoR with BoJ, it'd be
    5 BoJ +BoD+5BoJ+BoD+5BoJ+ .06 seconds to spare, we'll go conservative and say i got another BoD off.
    (please note, i'm talking about solely replacing the time in a real fight from hard casted BoR to BoJ, so this is NOT a rotation, so much as a breakdown of how the abilities would differ)

    So, in a real fight, compare the number of hard casts +BoD to the number of ideal BoJ + BoD's that'd replace them.

    12 BoR + 2 BoD = 194,874 dmg
    15 BoJ + 3 BoD = 194,052 dmg
    however, if i didn't get a 3rd BoD off, it comes out to
    15 BoJ + 2 BoD = 172,473 dmg

    Either way, with my values, it looks to be that in a real raid scenario, hard casting BoR is just the same as using BoJ. And if you're stacks don't equal to an extra BoD, you loose dps casting BoJ.

    If you do math without scrutiny on, BoJ will always win.

    BTW, with the coruscating stone on, i'm 8047sp 2910 sc and 972 cp in my gear, values taken reflect such in a 61/10cab/5sham spec

    The ultimate breakdown:
    In a theoretical rotation of BoR/BoJ + BoD, hard casting BoR wins out ever so slightly.
    In a real raid situation, BoR wins out ever so slightly with IDEAL BoD procs
    In a real raid situation, BoR wins out by a fairly decent chunk if BoD procs are not optimal.


    My 2 cents.
    Last edited by Zehne; 10-14-2014 at 10:13 AM.

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    RIFT Guide Writer fufi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zehne View Post
    Where does the 3 casts at 1 second come from?
    I'll take it as a typo.

    But, in all reality, when you throw Nysyrs and SH into the mix, it will change the number of potential BoJ's and BoR's out the window, AKA there are times where you'll have 6 stacks of cast time reduction when using C/D's.

    How big of a factor does that play into the BoJ/BoR equation. Also what about latency/lag issues and ability queing?
    Indeed I didn't have buffs on, my bad. 3 casts at one second come from 2 EC and the BoD under Unifier Theory (instant = 1s)

    Redoing the same reasoning as earlier with correct values(BoR at 13862, BoJ at 9452 and BoD at 23636.45), I find that hardcasting BoR with cast time reduction outdps going BoJ slightly (13470.5 vs 13286.075). However hardcasting without cast time reduction becomes a loss (12392.86).

    I'm not sure I get the rest of your reasoning in your second post. Casting BoJ when you could be casting BoR in the same time is an obvious dps loss.

    And I don't know how to answer the lag concern. Personally I play with long queue and I think it's the best way to counteract lag and latency.

    What I wonder now is how it affects BoD aligning with NR.
    Last edited by fufi; 10-14-2014 at 11:04 AM.
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    A lot of work for something that will be changing in 8 days, barring another unfortunate delay. Although the question whether BoR versus BoJ will still be highly important, i would suggest doing the same math using the pts numbers.

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    RIFT Guide Writer fufi's Avatar
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    Yup, but until 5 minutes ago, I just thought that the rule was BoR with EC > BoJ > BoR, which isn't actual truth.
    Will do more work on PTS numbers !
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    not to sound like a meanie, but i hate Ahov.

    the reason for this is because Ahov does alot of testing, and he posts his summaries quite often. Thusly, alot of people who don't want to work to better themselves cop out to the 'well ahov said this' and blindly follow it.

    So, to sum it up, i hate ahov because of the people that listen to him.

    If everyone did testing on their own, they might of discovered that BoJ>BoR doesn't hold true always.

    But it wouldn't be a huge stretch to say that because of a post made a LONG time ago, 90% of clerics or more believe that BoJ>BoR. Which, does not hold true.

    /end rant

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zehne View Post
    not to sound like a meanie, but i hate Ahov.

    the reason for this is because Ahov does alot of testing, and he posts his summaries quite often. Thusly, alot of people who don't want to work to better themselves cop out to the 'well ahov said this' and blindly follow it.

    So, to sum it up, i hate ahov because of the people that listen to him.

    If everyone did testing on their own, they might of discovered that BoJ>BoR doesn't hold true always.

    But it wouldn't be a huge stretch to say that because of a post made a LONG time ago, 90% of clerics or more believe that BoJ>BoR. Which, does not hold true.

    /end rant
    Pretty sure that was everyone's findings at the time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zehne View Post
    not to sound like a meanie, but i hate Ahov.

    the reason for this is because Ahov does alot of testing, and he posts his summaries quite often. Thusly, alot of people who don't want to work to better themselves cop out to the 'well ahov said this' and blindly follow it.

    So, to sum it up, i hate ahov because of the people that listen to him.

    If everyone did testing on their own, they might of discovered that BoJ>BoR doesn't hold true always.

    But it wouldn't be a huge stretch to say that because of a post made a LONG time ago, 90% of clerics or more believe that BoJ>BoR. Which, does not hold true.

    /end rant
    Please tell me how my posts in that thread from a year ago are misleading?

    As explained in that thread, even "if" BoR wound up being slightly better than BoJ, it was a pointless debate at the time because I explained to everyone that 51 archon wasn't worth using over 40/36 pyrochon for maximum raid dps.

    People are free and encouraged to perform their own testing. In all honesty I'd be very happy if most people could do such a thing without my help. I'd have less arguments with people who just insult me. Because honestly, you personally don't deserve my help. But if you're going to spread misinformation I am obligated to correct you so the masses aren't dumbed down by it.

    Assuming you have cast-time reduction, I am currently seeing BoR exclusively used as a roughly 1.5% improvement in the "bolt" department (contribution is much less when you consider scourge/vex/nysyr's rebuke). The problem is, such a small gain is STILL NOT WORTH running cast-time reduction support. You are much better off with a 48 BM to get enrage and regular archon buffs.

    This is the same conclusion as I made before, except back in the day everyone and their mother was running 51 or 61 archon and thought the cast-time reduction was mandatory. The thing is, it's not. You gain more raid dps by increasing the support's dps in these scenarios than giving your somewhat cast-reliant players a very small boost.

    The problem isn't BoR vs BoJ; the real maths is behind a support with cast-time reduction vs a support with more personal dps. And to put it bluntly: if you're running cast-time reduction, it's probably wrong. You would need quite a large amount of affected casts from high-impact DPS to justify lowering the support's dps so much.
    Last edited by Ahov; 10-14-2014 at 01:14 PM.

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    Back to what I was saying:

    TBF, you might understand the differences between BoJ and BoR and BoD and how in a raid situation it makes differences.

    you might understand that depending on raid buffs and different situations overall raid dps vs personal dps differs, and the ability choices might differ aswell

    but to the 90% of clerics reading the posts, all they see is BoJ>BoR because of BoD

    ask any cleric about inquisitor, and if they think they know inquisitor, you'll get the uniform resounding answer that BoJ>BoR because of BoD.

    They don't know why, or how really, so much as they just pick those words as justification for their belief.

    The assumption of BoJ>BoR takes into account one raid composition, while BoR>BoJ takes into another raid composition.

    also TBF, there are alot of raids that run cast time reduction.

    I never said your posts were misleading. Misunderstood is more likely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zehne View Post
    not to sound like a meanie, but i hate Ahov.

    the reason for this is because Ahov does alot of testing, and he posts his summaries quite often. Thusly, alot of people who don't want to work to better themselves cop out to the 'well ahov said this' and blindly follow it.

    So, to sum it up, i hate ahov because of the people that listen to him.

    If everyone did testing on their own, they might of discovered that BoJ>BoR doesn't hold true always.

    But it wouldn't be a huge stretch to say that because of a post made a LONG time ago, 90% of clerics or more believe that BoJ>BoR. Which, does not hold true.

    /end rant
    That sounds like a bit of stretch here. Are you concerned that some people follow guides as if they were rules, because that's what is in their ability to do so? To come out and blame a specific individual for others lacking, that's pretty harsh.

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