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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: Suggestions for Warden

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    RIFT Guide Writer fufi's Avatar
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    Default Suggestions for Warden

    About a year ago, a lot of clerics advocated for big buffs to Warden, and at that time I think it was wrong. But with the recent arrival of Liberators, and Phys/Tact, it's time for Warden to recieve a great numbers of QoL and buffs. Indeed, no other soul can deal with spike raid damage as well as warden, but when it comes to sustained raid hps, warden is nowadays the worst raid healer, and that's with a lot more ability management and buttons that any other soul in the game, be it damage dealer, support, tank or healer. Such a complexity should be rewarded with very competitive sustained hps. Even if warden were to become to best at both spike healing and sustained healing, chloros would still be prefered for more raid dps due to Wild Growth and Living Energy, while Phys/Tact would still couple very well with other raid healers due to the shielding it brings and Power Core.
    Here are different suggestions I thought for Warden (going all of them at once surely would be overkill, even though Warden really needs all that QoL).

    *Ability - Downpour: Is not susceptible to Pushback anymore, can be channeled while moving.

    *Dark Water and its Darkness from Cabalist are now affected by talents affecting Water.

    *Ability - Oversaturation: Now a 10 minutes debuff. In addition to its current damage proc, reduces the global cooldown of the warden's damage over time abilities against the affected enemy to 1 second.

    *Ability - Bosun's Blessing: In adition to its current effects: Reduces the global cooldown of single target healing over time abilities to 1 second. Causes Dangers of the Deep, Dark Water's Darkness and Soothing Stream to decay rather than disappearing straight away: Instead of disappearing, if the buff/debuff had X stacks, you have X seconds to reapply it, and when reapplying, the ability is back at Y stacks, Y being the number of seconds remaining on the decaying stack + 1. Example: Dangers of the deep goes to 0 time duration while I had 5 stacks of it -> I gain a buff of 5 seconds called decaying Dangers of the Deep (which doesn't give the benefits of Dangers of the Deep). I attack a target when there's 2 seconds left on decaying Dangers of the Deep -> I'm back at 3 stacks of Dangers of the Deep.

    *Talent - Invigoration: In addition to it's current effect, Healing Flood affects an additional 5/10 targets.
    -> If done, remove Healing Flood being applied by Monsoon.

    *Talent - Dangers of the Deep: In addition to it's current effect, reduces the cast time of your spells by 0.033/0.066/0.1s per stack.


    Feel free to discuss: would it be overkill, would it be too much (probably would!) ? Do you have other suggestions ? Is current balance between raid healers satisfying ?
    Last edited by fufi; 08-19-2014 at 08:48 AM.
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  2. #2
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    Downpour should be cast @self automatically as well.

    Since Liberator Healing Flood needs to hit 20 targets. Monsoon applying Healing Flood still wouldn't be as issue

    1s GCD would be awesome

    Oversaturation could use some reduction in micromanagement given how many buttons there are to push as it is.

    A better and less buggy hybrid option with Defiler would be great for the coming expansion

  3. #3
    Rift Master krabcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fufi View Post

    *Dark Water and its Darkness from Cabalist are now affected by talents affecting Water.

    *Ability - Oversaturation: Now a 10 minutes debuff. In addition to its current damage proc, reduces the global cooldown of damage over time abilities against the affected enemy to 1 second.

    *Ability - Bosun's Blessing: In addition to its current effects: Reduces the global cooldown of single target healing over time abilities to 1 second.

    *Talent - Dangers of the Deep: In addition to it's current effect, reduces the cast time of your spells by 0.033/0.066/0.1s per stack.
    i like this for the most part just a few gripes

    1. i don't really see how darkwater fits in as it is a purely dps spell from a separate soul

    2. if that were a debuff on the boss it might be a bit OP because the way you are phrasing it now makes me think you want it to apply to all dots for everybody

    3+4. those don't seem to stack, 0.5 sec hot gcd is a bit quick, with that you could keep all hots running indefinitely on a 10 man and on most of a 20 man without monsoon or ripple
    Last edited by krabcat; 08-19-2014 at 08:09 AM.
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  4. #4
    RIFT Guide Writer fufi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by krabcat View Post
    1. i don't really see how darkwater fits in as it is a purely dps spell from a separate soul
    The changes would let Dark Water be cast on your primary target with 1s GCD. This change would promote gynergy between the two souls, and if a warden wants to bring more dps to the raid while sacrificing a bit of hps, he would have a choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by krabcat View Post
    ]2. if that were a debuff on the boss it might be a bit OP because the way you are phrasing it now makes me think you want it to apply to all dots for everybody
    Well I meant only personnal DoTs, I'll rephrase the OP.

    Quote Originally Posted by krabcat View Post
    3+4. those don't seem to stack, 0.5 sec hot gcd is a bit quick, with that you could keep all hots running indefinitely on a 10 man and on most of a 20 man without monsoon or ripple
    Cast time and global cooldown are two different things:
    -The change to Bosun's blessing would let you apply Soothing Stream and Healing Spray with 1s global cooldow, while not affecting the rest of the spells.
    -The change to Dangers of the Deep would only affect the cast time of spells. In a 61 Warden spec, that would be only Overflowing Renewal, Healing Cataract, and whichever casted spells in other subsouls.
    <Apotheosys>@Typhiria
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  5. #5
    Shadowlander LyonsLight's Avatar
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    I REALLY like the DotD idea. It's a good, tangible benefit that would make it stand out enough for new/unpracticed Wardens to keep an eye on it to keep it up. The BB ST HoT change would be a nice buff, and would certainly make things easier. As for Downpour I agree SOMETHING needs to be done with it although I'm not sure your suggestion would be best. That being said though I don't have any ideas myself off the top of my head lol.

  6. #6
    Rift Chaser VolsalexR's Avatar
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    I'm all for reducing 2 sec casts to 1.5 sec, not only on Warden, but also on Chloro, even if healing numbers should be lowered as well. They are just outdated ( I think only very strong abilities should have 2+ sec cast time, and definitely not spammable ones).

    Several additional suggestions:
    - Rising Tides: Now just reduces cooldown of Tidal Surge by 5/10/15 seconds.
    Reason: Its CD reduction is the worst amongst all 3 souls with it as you should use damaging abilities only to keep DotD up (aka 3-4 times/ 45 seconds). The change will allow to spend it between Downpour and Wave of Renewal and finally make DP useful somehow.
    - Orbs of the Tide (AoE) need slight buff, they don't deserve 30 sec CD as they heal not much more than Healing Effusion.
    Last edited by VolsalexR; 08-19-2014 at 12:56 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Emtbob View Post
    Downpour should be cast @self automatically as well.

    Since Liberator Healing Flood needs to hit 20 targets. Monsoon applying Healing Flood still wouldn't be as issue

    1s GCD would be awesome

    Oversaturation could use some reduction in micromanagement given how many buttons there are to push as it is.

    A better and less buggy hybrid option with Defiler would be great for the coming expansion
    No, you are not always perfectly centered (case in point world first binding of maelforge where I soak the Tyrant's Fire mechanic; I needed to channel downpour at a midpoint between myself and the melee stack).

    Warden is honestly pretty balanced and while some QoL changes are in order (I'm looking at you, Soothing Stream), we don't need real healing boosts. The other healers need to be toned back. We're already basically at a point where if you really need to heal the raid you can sustain 100k hps for quite a bit. Does warden really need to be more powerful?

    Just nerf chloro and phys/tact (liberator does far less dps than a warden so that balances its extra healing benefit on some fights).
    Last edited by Ahov; 08-19-2014 at 01:42 PM.

  8. #8
    Champion Yaarielle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VolsalexR View Post
    - Rising Tides: Now just reduces cooldown of Tidal Surge by 5/10/15 seconds.
    Reason: Its CD reduction is the worst amongst all 3 souls with it as you should use damaging abilities only to keep DotD up (aka 3-4 times/ 45 seconds). The change will allow to spend it between Downpour and Wave of Renewal and finally make DP useful somehow.
    You should not only use damaging abilities to keep DotD up, but also when there's no healing needed for a few secs, so the change you're asking is pretty crazy imo. Heck, with such a change, you got your Orbs of the Tide buff like you want since Tidal Surge will be off-cooldown super often (I'm not sure if the +80% healing only applies to the first stack of the Orbs, though).
    Last edited by Yaarielle; 08-19-2014 at 02:15 PM.
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  9. #9
    Rift Disciple LaPengo's Avatar
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    Lower the Mana cost of Geyser.
    A pushback talent would be nice, but unnecessary.

    It doesn't need anything else.

  10. #10
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    Small QOL change: Make Overflowing Renewal apply/refresh DotD.
    Mostly would like to see this so warden becomes a little more attractive in 5 mans.

    Would synergize well with the suggested 0.5s cast time reduction of DotD.
    Last edited by Skollvaldr; 08-19-2014 at 07:21 PM.

  11. #11
    Prophet of Telara
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    Warden isn't bad, game encounters just very rarely support using one. and Flame of Life + Life's Rapture combo can cover a lot heavy AE dmg.
    Quote Originally Posted by elfaraon View Post
    you really need to play more pyro . I bet you are a warrior or rogue so your opinion is not accurate at all. By the way pyro is not even close to have the highest burst in the game tell that to a sin or warlord

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    Ascendant Galibier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Otts View Post
    Warden isn't bad, game encounters just very rarely support using one. and Flame of Life + Life's Rapture combo can cover a lot heavy AE dmg.
    Just curious why have an AoE soul get improvements to ST heals?

    As for "just Nerf Cloro and Phys/tac" that doesn't solve the problem. Ahov you of all people know the problem with Warden is that it is designed around healing heavy Burst damage. Unless you nerfed souls optimized for steady damage to the point of basic uselessness the warden would always be sub optimal because of how it heals. Its like trying to make a sprinter run a 10k. Even if turned around and made a warden a Liberator (both burst and steady AoE healing) warden doesn't bring the utility of Cloro (or phystac atm) so again.

    The problem right now is basically content driven. There are basically three options.

    1. Get trion to provide the burst damage content a warden thrives on consistently.
    2. Change to warden to reflect the fact that said burst content is not always present.
    3. As a cleric healer accept what the dps and tank souls in all the other callings have since launch. Namely that there will not always be a place for you favorite soul, suck it up and learn to use the other ones that perform similar functions.

    Any of the three above would work. Only one of them is in the players hands.
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

  13. #13
    RIFT Guide Writer fufi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Otts View Post
    Warden isn't bad, game encounters just very rarely support using one. and Flame of Life + Life's Rapture combo can cover a lot heavy AE dmg.
    Which is abnormal considering how complex the soul is compared to other healers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Galibier View Post
    Just curious why have an AoE soul get improvements to ST heals?
    Because ST heals are how you get Shared Excess to work, except that keeping Healing Spray and Soothing Stream up on one person already costs 3 seconds every 15-20 seconds. Reducing that time to 2 seconds would already give more space. Warden is also the weakest AOE healers when it comes to ST healing (hello volan's cells and Rasmolov), and it wouldn't be overtuned that Overflowing Renewal take 1.5s to cast rather than 2s when you're keeping up DotD. We're talking about giving proper reward to one of the most contradictive class mechanic in the game.
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  14. #14
    Ascendant Galibier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fufi View Post
    Which is abnormal considering how complex the soul is compared to other healers.

    Because ST heals are how you get Shared Excess to work, except that keeping Healing Spray and Soothing Stream up on one person already costs 3 seconds every 15-20 seconds. Reducing that time to 2 seconds would already give more space. Warden is also the weakest AOE healers when it comes to ST healing (hello volan's cells and Rasmolov), and it wouldn't be overtuned that Overflowing Renewal take 1.5s to cast rather than 2s when you're keeping up DotD. We're talking about giving proper reward to one of the most contradictive class mechanic in the game.
    Shared excess applies to all over healing not just ST. Additionally the reason the Liberator has stronger ST healing is so they can actually dungeon heal and such, the logic being Warden does not need it because you have more healing options. This is another reason why I think they should do with Cleric healing what they are doing with Warrior tanks.

    I know this is likely not a popular idea but I think the solution is to eliminate a healing soul. Keep Puri and Defiler the way they are. Make the new Cleric healer on the same concept of the Cab change. Allow it to be a full on raid healer...mixed or full on ST healer. Have the AoE bias be the stronger of the three. Also while keeping a burst bias...make steady state a little easier (read less Mana intensive.) Make the "other" soul a full on ranged damage dealer. Have Inquis be similar to Marksman. Lower dps because of the purges and such.

    It would simply be easier to balance things because as things stand now content itself has a large impact on Warden viability in and of itself and Sentinel, outside of the dead and buried Senticar hybrid has really never been viable in and of itself. Two birds with one stone and you don't lose healing flexibility because you have now combined two into one. Additionally you eliminate the excuse of utility being the reason for Cleric ranged dps not being competitive.
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

  15. #15
    RIFT Guide Writer fufi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galibier View Post
    Shared excess applies to all over healing not just ST.
    I'm aware of that, but Shared excess does almost nothing from AOE if you don't have your HoTs rolling on Shared Excess's target, since when you are AOE healing, probably that target isn't topped off, just like everyone else. When the target is topped off, so is everyone else.


    I think the rest of your post is a valid idea, when it comes to the PvE side of thing, but worries me on the PvP side.
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