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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: Suggestions for Warden

  1. #31
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    * Healing Flood applies to up to 20 raid members
    Last edited by haybale; 08-25-2014 at 02:13 PM.
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by KelbornOrdo View Post
    Here's my suggestions:

    AoE/ST "Stance"






    In the Soul Tree, switch Orbs of the Tide to 44pt Root and Orbs of the Stream to Tier 4 Branch. (gives better ST healing for leveling early, and better raid healing later in leveling)

    I really liked the idea people had of making Warden a "stance dancer" similar to Chloro, given how [nearly] useless Sentinel is. You can get quite a bit of healing out of the current Orbs of the Tide... but Orbs of the Stream? "Meh".

    I didn't like turning one of the other buffs, like Bosun's Blessing or Shared Excess, into a convoluted mess like was in the OP, so I went with re-purposing both Orbs. A change like this would make Warden more dymanic, and even able to keep a tank up should an actual tank healer die. The Soul still leans more towards the burst side of things, but the Tide changes should help squeeze out a bit more sustained.

    General Changes

    Soothing Stream: Change to a single stack HoT.

    Bosun's Blessing: In addition to it's current effects, reduces the GCD of Healing Spray and Soothing Stream by 0.5s.

    Downpour: Change to mobile channel, increase healing by 20%.

    Ripple: Reduce CD to 15s, change to affect 10 targets.

    Dangers of the Deep: Increase duration to 30s.

    Oversaturation: Applies Call of the Depths and Dehydrate to the target in addition to it's current effects.


    The changes to Soothing Stream, Dangers of the Deep, and Oversaturation are QoL to reduce the amount of micro-management in Warden. The Ripple change will help boost sustained healing by allowing SS/HS to be on 10 targets at all times, outside of Monsoon and on 20 targets during Monsoon. Downpour is just a very lackluster ability, so maybe making it mobile and increasing the healing would make it more useful. The addition to Bosun's Blessing is just something that needed to be done.
    God, please no stance-dancing. Warden is already OK at spot-healing considering most of the time on encounters you are DPSing for those GCDs. You have lots of time to do it, and stance-dancing just seems annoying for the warden role.

    @Everything else: Please stop suggesting actual healing buffs. For the sake of balance and my sanity as a top-end raider, other healing roles need to be nerfed. If Warden gets buffed then we just keep promoting this problem which was actually solved at the very beginning of Storm Legion. I don't know if you recall ID healing but it was basically just have a few healers, maybe 1 chloro with Radiant Spores and you have the entire raid topped off within a second from any amount of damage. Now it's the same way with a few phys/tacts or chloros + 1 burst healer such as a warden. And now puri has Flame of Life which further trivializes big raid damage.

    The transition from Vanilla Rift to Storm Legion changed a lot in the healing department. Trion recognized the problem with heal scaling, especially ones such as Radiant Spores and Doctrine of Loyalty. Health pools were finally increased to an appropriate level for the healing, and in general one or two aoe healers would struggle to keep the raid topped off (Of course, until patch 2.1 where chloro healing was bugged and doing 100% more).

    We now have the same issue at the end of Storm Legion. Healing has scaled too well from those greens and blues we started out with in FT progression. Our health pools have improved by 50%, but our healing throughput has improved even more than that due to gear and other things like chloro buffs and the introduction of phys/tacts.

    Kervik needs to look for a couple of QoL changes to Warden, specifically having no pushback on Downpour and changing the Soothing Stream mechanic. But I want him to also notice that we are now approaching the same dangerously high level of healing as we were by Infernal Dawn progression. Our gear has caught up with us and raid designers are forced to either make the damage doable and very easy, or very high to almost outscale our healing and make us susceptible to RNG ticks. We need to go back to a time with large health pools and less healing. THEN the raid developers have more options to do the raid damage.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahov View Post
    @Everything else: Please stop suggesting actual healing buffs. For the sake of balance and my sanity as a top-end raider, other healing roles need to be nerfed.
    .
    Nerf Flame of Life and Link Influence please.

    edit : The whole defiler concept actually needs toned down.
    Last edited by haybale; 08-25-2014 at 02:29 PM.
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by haybale View Post
    Nerf Flame of Life and Link Influence please.

    edit : The whole defiler concept actually needs toned down.
    From a balance perspective it is easy to work around Defiler; the question becomes whether or not Trion wants it as a mandatory role. If yes, then it's fine the way it is and damage can indeed be massive enough to need the link (Mallaven, Magcilian). If no, then the links need to be toned back and perhaps Defiler be run for more unique circumstances.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahov View Post
    From a balance perspective it is easy to work around Defiler; the question becomes whether or not Trion wants it as a mandatory role. If yes, then it's fine the way it is and damage can indeed be massive enough to need the link (Mallaven, Magcilian). If no, then the links need to be toned back and perhaps Defiler be run for more unique circumstances.
    And that is the rub. Personally at this point I think Clerics NEED Defiler and MAYBE even Puri the way they are. You can talk about "what about warden, or what about Sent" like some do until you are blue in the face but with every calling having heals now it is either have a Cleric role or two that are absolutely necessary and the others optional OR all of them are optional.

    If all of them are optional then QQ then stops being about "what is the point of my warden" and morphs back to what we have had in the past, simply "what is the point of a Cleric healer" due to the fact they will NEVER have things so perfectly balanced it is about the player. Hell even if they could pull that off people, who were poorer players, would still blame the calling and not themselves.

    It sucks but in a game like Rift you need souls in each calling that bring something unique and necessary to keep them in the mix as the balance roller coaster does it's thing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahov View Post
    /snip.
    Just wondering if you have 5 healers on a fight (if you count defiler)...is it the problem really the healers being able to keep the raid alive or is the issue that you can hit the dps check with only 11 dps (since you have 2 tanks and 2 support as well?)

    Seems like it could go either way tbh.
    Last edited by Galibier; 08-25-2014 at 08:42 PM.
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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahov View Post
    God, please no stance-dancing. Warden is already OK at spot-healing considering most of the time on encounters you are DPSing for those GCDs. You have lots of time to do it, and stance-dancing just seems annoying for the warden role.
    I suggested the "stance dancing" as a solution for Wardens to heal in Dungeons, should Sentinel be re-purposed like Reaver is being for Warriors (which others had offered as a suggestion). Besides Inyr and being "easier" for dungeon healing, Sentinel really serves no purpose in PvE.

    With the "stances" I proposed, Healing Cataract and Healing Effusion could have their base amount nerfed so that with Orbs of the Tide up they'd be same value as currently on Live.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahov View Post
    @Everything else: Please stop suggesting actual healing buffs. For the sake of balance and my sanity as a top-end raider, other healing roles need to be nerfed.
    I only suggested 2 buffs, Ripple and Downpour. Everything else was a QoL change because of all the bull**** micro-management that Wardens have to deal with. I know several Clerics who don't even bother with Dangers of the Deep because they think it's too annoying to keep up with how short the duration is. I'll admit that I slack on the damage and just use Geyser every 15s, because keeping up everything else while healing is annoying too.

    True, Lib and Phys need to be nerfed a bit. Blanket 15-20% reduction on all heals would be a good place to start. Maybe even turn the heal reduction on Alternative Treatment to 70% all the time instead of just PvP.

    But my suggrestion for Ripple would give Wardens better sustained healing, which would make them more favorable for T3 than they currently are. Warden is a burst healer... without good sustain, why would anyone want to bring it to sustained damage content?

    And Downpour... well, it needs something done. Pushback... immobile... not that much of a gain over Healing Cataract. Yeah, it needs some love. Making it immune to pushback, mobile, and buffing the healing seems like the way to go for me. Currently it's really only useful on one fight (Toxilua) and just as a filler instead of an actual cooldown.
    Last edited by KelbornOrdo; 08-25-2014 at 11:45 PM.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by KelbornOrdo View Post
    I suggested the "stance dancing" as a solution for Wardens to heal in Dungeons, should Sentinel be re-purposed like Reaver is being for Warriors (which others had offered as a suggestion). Besides Inyr and being "easier" for dungeon healing, Sentinel really serves no purpose in PvE.

    With the "stances" I proposed, Healing Cataract and Healing Effusion could have their base amount nerfed so that with Orbs of the Tide up they'd be same value as currently on Live.



    I only suggested 2 buffs, Ripple and Downpour. Everything else was a QoL change because of all the bull**** micro-management that Wardens have to deal with. I know several Clerics who don't even bother with Dangers of the Deep because they think it's too annoying to keep up with how short the duration is. I'll admit that I slack on the damage and just use Geyser every 15s, because keeping up everything else while healing is annoying too.

    True, Lib and Phys need to be nerfed a bit. Blanket 15-20% reduction on all heals would be a good place to start. Maybe even turn the heal reduction on Alternative Treatment to 70% all the time instead of just PvP.

    But my suggrestion for Ripple would give Wardens better sustained healing, which would make them more favorable for T3 than they currently are. Warden is a burst healer... without good sustain, why would anyone want to bring it to sustained damage content?

    And Downpour... well, it needs something done. Pushback... immobile... not that much of a gain over Healing Cataract. Yeah, it needs some love. Making it immune to pushback, mobile, and buffing the healing seems like the way to go for me. Currently it's really only useful on one fight (Toxilua) and just as a filler instead of an actual cooldown.
    The answer is: you wouldn't want to bring it for a "sustained-only" fight. And that's fine. There are chloromancers and phys/tacts to fill that role. But another problem is that burst healing on encounters is very hard to find. Throughout all of T2 20-man content the only fights where Warden shined were Volan and Planebreaker Abominus. Everything else was sustained damage, not burst aoe. In T3 Laethys has burst damage but it lines up perfectly with Flame of Life + Life's Rapture. No reason whatsoever to use a Warden, and if you do you are gimping your raid. Akylios is good to run one Warden on because of Ruthless Undertow. Maelforge used to be a great fight for Warden but post-nerf you basically just dps and cleanse until the final shield burn, where you pop cooldowns and spam PoR/HE for 30 seconds.

    I'm ok with Warden not being desired on every encounter; you can't balance the game like that. However, it would be nice to see more challenging burst damage once again, and Flame of Life + Life's Rapture toned back or removed entirely (or at least have the burst damage occur more frequently than every 90 seconds so you can't just negate it with these cooldowns).

    Liberator at this point doesn't really need a nerf because it does next to zero damage and the Warden cooldowns are simply better. If Liberator dps was buffed like I suggested a while back, then yeah it would probably be overall better for most scenarios due to the better sustained healing and aoe shield.

    edit: I saw your comment about Dangers of the Deep. Eh, I mean....if someone is struggling to maintain that, I don't know what to say. What are you doing mid-fight? Constantly healing? That's almost always incorrect. Watch my Maelforge video and you'll see all the downtime between raid damage so you can dot up and Geyser. The same concept applies on Binding of Akylios. Between Ruthless Undertow casts you are either DPSing, Open Water regen or healing Rasmolov. Twenty seconds is an awfully long duration to go without any damage; it almost never happens. The exception to that rule is when you're experiencing some truly awful raid damage where your #1 concern is healing throughput in the immediate future. It's ok to keep healing as long as it's actual effective healing; it just rarely actually occurs that way.

    I'd rather not see Warden dumbed down; if anything, add some complexity without increasing the number of abilities. Kervik can change skill interactions to be more interesting. What's wrong with letting the top 1% players have their min-max fun while the rest of the game still plays ok?
    Last edited by Ahov; 08-26-2014 at 01:04 AM.

  9. #39
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    What warden need, aside from the small QoL that Ahov mentionned, is orbital strike in T2 and T3.

    But then again, sustained healing as come to the point where, in T2 and T3, the raid get topped off nearly every global cooldown in the first place.

    What is needed is, again like Ahov said, bigger health pools so we get more playing field for damage taken/healing done.

    It is unfortunately too late in the expansion to make the changes. Let's just hope rift 3.0 will look forward to one or more of the following:
    1. Reducing stats gap between tiers. Less disparity.
    2. Higher health coefficient on endurance.
    3. Lower ratios on spells. More base damage/heal, less coefficients.
    Last edited by Snap; 08-26-2014 at 04:05 AM.
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  10.   Click here to go to the next Rift Team post in this thread.   #40
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    Hey all,

    Here's the current list of changes I'm looking at for Warden:
    • Alluvion - Now also increases the number of targets hit by Healing Flood by 5/10.
    • Under Pressure - Now also reduces the mana cost of Geyser, Healing Cataract, Healing Flood and Soothing Stream by 8/16/24%.
    • Dangers of the Deep - Stacks now also reduce the cast time of Warden abilities by 0.03/0.06/0.1s per stack.
    • Soothing Stream - Healing no longer decays over the duration of the HoT.
    • Ripple - Increase the base radius from 15m to 20m.
    • Distant Shores - Fix so it correctly affects the radius of Ripple and Monsoon.

  11. #41
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    I only have a few QOL suggestions for warden to achieve the following goals:

    1) Warden is allowed to queu up as heals in dungeons. If a 61 point cant effectively heal a 5 man dungeon then it should be allowed to queu up as heals. 61 lib can, 61 warden should be able to as well.

    2) Open up the GCDs a bit more to allow the warden slightly more wiggle room for making choices.

    3) Bring usefulness to abilities not commonly used (water jet, orbs, overflowing renewal).


    Things to open up more GCDs:

    *Water Jet - Refreshes all current water based damage over time abilities on the enemy.

    *Oversaturation - Now a 10 minute debuff (similar to viral infection).

    *Healing flood - affects 20 party or raid members.

    Less used abilities to get more utility (see water jet above)

    ORB CHANGES: (because the orbs are total Meh in my opinion, not too useful of a GCD, so changed them not to use them, and more of a safety net style heal...get it...safety net...warden...oki I'll stop )

    *Orbs of the Stream - Now a 1 hour buff, 1 target. Casting geyser causes the target to gain a stack of Streaming Orbs up to 4 stacks total. Every second the target is below 50% health the target consumes an orb to heal for X health.

    *Orbs of the Tide - Same as above, but up to 1 stack maximum of Tide Orbs, affects 20 party or raid members. Stacks are gained at 1 orb per 20 seconds however and only work when the target is at 30% health or lower. Much weaker healing.

    Net effect - Brings more utility to the orbs, but its not overpowered, the amount healed can be adjusted easily. Also brings more reason to cast geyser outside of just maintaining danger of deep stacks. Because of its link to orb of the streams, casting geyser still helps out your tank healing as well by building up those orbs. For balance purpose, you could also do the following (again only if the balance is seen as needed):

    Make orbs of the tide and orbs of the stream a self buff. Orbs of the stream causes geyser to put the orbs on the target of shared excess, whereas orbs of the tide causes the raid to gain an orb, and only one buff at a time. Again thats only if its found balancing is needed between too much single target with AOE heals, but I like the single target version a lot to help more with 5 man wardens that que up for heals.

    Anywho thats all I have for now. I think opening up the GCDs is important for warden and encourging the use of geyser a bit more. By adding in the orb stacks it brings back some of the complexity lost, but gives the warden greater power to control what they want to do and when.


    EDIT: Overflowing Renewal - lamest tank heal ever. Give it a small CD but instant cast and make it a spot heal like healing breath, since it already has partial healing up to two others.
    Last edited by Xenoheart; 08-26-2014 at 10:09 AM.
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  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xenoheart View Post
    I only have a few QOL suggestions for warden to achieve the following goals:

    1) Warden is allowed to queu up as heals in dungeons. If a 61 point cant effectively heal a 5 man dungeon then it should be allowed to queu up as heals. 61 lib can, 61 warden should be able to as well.

    2) Open up the GCDs a bit more to allow the warden slightly more wiggle room for making choices.

    3) Bring usefulness to abilities not commonly used (water jet, orbs, overflowing renewal).


    Things to open up more GCDs:

    *Water Jet - Refreshes all current water based damage over time abilities on the enemy.

    *Oversaturation - Now a 10 minute debuff (similar to viral infection).

    *Healing flood - affects 20 party or raid members.

    Less used abilities to get more utility (see water jet above)

    ORB CHANGES: (because the orbs are total Meh in my opinion, not too useful of a GCD, so changed them not to use them, and more of a safety net style heal...get it...safety net...warden...oki I'll stop )

    *Orbs of the Stream - Now a 1 hour buff, 1 target. Casting geyser causes the target to gain a stack of Streaming Orbs up to 4 stacks total. Every second the target is below 50% health the target consumes an orb to heal for X health.

    *Orbs of the Tide - Same as above, but up to 1 stack maximum of Tide Orbs, affects 20 party or raid members. Stacks are gained at 1 orb per 20 seconds however and only work when the target is at 30% health or lower. Much weaker healing.

    Net effect - Brings more utility to the orbs, but its not overpowered, the amount healed can be adjusted easily. Also brings more reason to cast geyser outside of just maintaining danger of deep stacks. Because of its link to orb of the streams, casting geyser still helps out your tank healing as well by building up those orbs. For balance purpose, you could also do the following (again only if the balance is seen as needed):

    Make orbs of the tide and orbs of the stream a self buff. Orbs of the stream causes geyser to put the orbs on the target of shared excess, whereas orbs of the tide causes the raid to gain an orb, and only one buff at a time. Again thats only if its found balancing is needed between too much single target with AOE heals, but I like the single target version a lot to help more with 5 man wardens that que up for heals.

    Anywho thats all I have for now. I think opening up the GCDs is important for warden and encourging the use of geyser a bit more. By adding in the orb stacks it brings back some of the complexity lost, but gives the warden greater power to control what they want to do and when.
    If you actually used Orbs of the Stream in a raid you would see it's not "meh." Having it passively apply via Geyser would be an absurd amount of passive tank-healing.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snap View Post
    What warden need, aside from the small QoL that Ahov mentionned, is orbital strike in T2 and T3.

    But then again, sustained healing as come to the point where, in T2 and T3, the raid get topped off nearly every global cooldown in the first place.

    What is needed is, again like Ahov said, bigger health pools so we get more playing field for damage taken/healing done.

    It is unfortunately too late in the expansion to make the changes. Let's just hope rift 3.0 will look forward to one or more of the following:
    1. Reducing stats gap between tiers. Less disparity.
    2. Higher health coefficient on endurance.
    3. Lower ratios on spells. More base damage/heal, less coefficients.
    The problem is sustained healing is what u say it is if you are stacking the junk out of healers. Call me crazy but I honestly think the issue in t3 is how little dps is needed. In t1 or t2 would you have even thought about meeting a dps check with only 10 or 11 dps? Hell no.

    So in t3 we have either an intentional "okay try an HPS check" or just so low a dps check that it unintentionally allows heal stacking. Either way the more I think about it the less I think the problem is the ease of healing but rather dps checks that let you just pile up more healing.
    Last edited by Galibier; 08-26-2014 at 10:11 AM.
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  14. #44
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    For pvp (which means for warden CQ/Scion), it's a real pain to reach and maintain the 5 stacks of DotD. We will need them even more if the previous buff is applied.
    5x1.5s before starting to heal, your whole team can already be dead, so we generally can't afford it. It's even hard to maintain sometimes with all the cc flying around.

    A skill with 1mn CD for example that would give the 5 stacks would greatly improve QoL

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kervik View Post
    Hey all,

    Here's the current list of changes I'm looking at for Warden:
    • Alluvion - Now also increases the number of targets hit by Healing Flood by 5/10.
    • Under Pressure - Now also reduces the mana cost of Geyser, Healing Cataract, Healing Flood and Soothing Stream by 8/16/24%.
    • Dangers of the Deep - Stacks now also reduce the cast time of Warden abilities by 0.03/0.06/0.1s per stack.
    • Soothing Stream - Healing no longer decays over the duration of the HoT.
    • Ripple - Increase the base radius from 15m to 20m.
    • Distant Shores - Fix so it correctly affects the radius of Ripple and Monsoon.
    The only thing I dont like is that'll make healing cataract out value geyser by a crap ton now. Its really just healing cataract and overflowing renewal that would be effected by dangers of the deep. I'd rather dangers of the deep be the reduction in mana cost on warden abilities per stack rather than cast time. I still wish geyser was made to be the base spam for AOE healing (since it does damage) with healing cataract the to go to when no enemy targets are available (kinda like chloro does with natural healing and flourish, etc).

    However, some of those changes literally bring forth angels, lightbeams, and a church choir when I read them!!!
    [*]Alluvion - Now also increases the number of targets hit by Healing Flood by 5/10.
    [*]Soothing Stream - Healing no longer decays over the duration of the HoT.[*]Ripple - Increase the base radius from 15m to 20m.[*]Distant Shores - Fix so it correctly affects the radius of Ripple and Monsoon.

    Woot!
    Last edited by Xenoheart; 08-26-2014 at 10:16 AM.
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