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Thread: 3.0 Cleric Healing

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    Default 3.0 Cleric Healing

    Cleric has technically 4 healing souls. 2 that are required in every progression encounter, 1 that doesn't even understand what PvE is, and another that has been benched more often as of late. There are several things i would like to see changed to the healing dynamic in 3.0 and would like to get peoples thoughts.

    1. Purifier - Flame of Life needs to go away. This abiltiies introduction led to the gimping of one of our on healing souls in Warden by neutralizing the need for burst ae healing on certain encounters. There is no dynamic to this ability. The same could be said for Life's Rapture. They serve only to drastically reduce an encounters healing requirements. Removing this ability could be both good and bad for the class.

    Pro: Wardens gain some position on the burst healing front.

    Con: Puri would no longer be "required" on certain encounters meaning a healing cleric may lose a raid spot at times.

    2. Warden - AoE healing abilities in this soul and Liberator should affect 20 targets. Warden's single target healing potential is extremely lackluster and it could never server to fill the role of Tank + Sustained AE healing that Chloro and Phystact now have ridiculous command over. Allowing it's heals to affect 20 targets means ward or lib will be the best option for 20 man raid healing. Chloro or Phystact would still hold over 10 man healing and any situation where tank healing with some lower sustained aoe healing may be needed while still providing their dps buffs. I think the HP increase that is currently active on the PTS is just asking for this change.

    3. Defiler- Being required on every encounter is both a blessing and a curse for Clerics. It means one cleric is always forced into a role that he/she may not want to play. Along with Puri and Oracle, Clerics have very little choice if they wanted to be a primary dps for instance. I feel it is weak encounter and class design to force this soul into use every time and something needs to be done to prevent this from continuing.

    Unstable Transformation is part of the problem and should be the first thing to go or be balanced. Remove the healing component and bump it's CD to 2 minutes. Reduce the number and power of Links, make them diminish over time and slap a cool down on them. Force management of what is the basis of this soul. They are simply over powered right now and it needs balancing. Remedy the issue with the DPS being so reliant on PT and either slightly buff the souls damage or healing to compensate for diminishing links.

    4. Sentinel - I have no idea what this soul needs. PvP players seem to like it but it is extremely lacking on the pve side of things when comparing to similar ST healers like Puri and 61 Physician. Physicians raw output in pve has made sentinel a joke. It is truly pathetic how outmatched it is currently (In PvE).

    TL;DR Puri and Defiler need to be balanced (nerfed) while Warden and Sentinel need some love (buffed) for the upcoming expansion to make a more all around lineup of healing souls.
    Last edited by haybale; 08-13-2014 at 08:46 PM.
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    Should give Warlord a 30% link and make necro better for the 30% link.

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    Ascendant Galibier's Avatar
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    The problem with Cleric healing is tbh how many healing souls the calling has. Please note I am not counting defiler in the below because it is unique in that it is the links not actual active heals that make it necessary.

    In order to do away with the constant pissing match that existed within the calling (I still remember the endless what about MY Sent or MY Warden back and forths) AND against Chloros they had to first split the clerics into ST or AoE period. Then to keep them different from Chloros they made them burst/damage prevention healers vs steady state consistent healers (Chloro)

    Flame of life really doesn't mean much. Is it nice? Yeah but on a true burst healing fight that is not enough. Look at Crucia during progression POST double dip fix (that killed Bard/tac and hurt Chloros raid healing). No one was saying "we don't need a Warden...Flame of Life will handle all the orbitals.".

    The problem isn't Warden as much as it is content driven. In T1 there were plenty of fights where you needed wardens. T2 less and t3 even fewer (if any). Problem is that while we say it sucks now it will be the exact opposite again. The only solution I can see is accepting it because after almost 4 years of this content driven seesaw there is NO sign that the content devs are going to change. Cloro and Phys/tac are doing what they are in t3 because the burst damage the Warden excelsat is lacking. Even Tox, it is A LOT of raid healing BUT it is all steady progressive healing not burst. Raising Warden to 20 targets doesn't change the difference between burst healing and steady consistent raid healing that makes the Warden go OOM if they try to match the Chloros.

    Because Puri exists however and Shields will ALWAYS be better than heals...Sentinel is screwed. No real way around it. Sucks but that is the way it is.

    With the above in mind....

    What they need to do is what Vladd is doing with Warrior tanks. Right now you have a Hybrid Tank/dps soul in Warlord. This is kinda analogous to Defiler in terms of a split personality though Warlord lacks an ability that is near required like links. U then have VK and Pally, the " true tanks." Reaver is being reworked to dps.

    The same needs to be done to Clerics as much as it will piss some people off. Keep Puri largely the way it is, a shielding soul with supplemental heals and keep defiler the way it is. Take either Warden or Sent, which ever Kervik thinks will be easier, and make that the other healer. A burst AoE focused soul but with the the ability to swap (on a cooldown) to a ST burst bias, just not as a effective...kinda like how Cab rules AoE dps in cleric but when ST does less than ST focused souls. In this way it doesn't potentially piss in the Puri's Cheerios but has a more flexiblity in purpose.

    Take the remaining soul and make it a dps soul. Maybe a counter part to Inquis. Inquis should always do less dps than say Ranger or Warlock imo because it has more utility. Make the former healer basically a straight on ST ranged damage dealer that can duke it out with the other top dogs .
    Last edited by Galibier; 08-13-2014 at 09:50 PM.
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

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    Rift Master Rarz's Avatar
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    Just because you don't understand Defiler or don't like it, doesn't mean it needs to go away or be nerfed. I enjoy the class a lot, it can heal and do dps as the fight demands. It supports the rest of the raid and is interesting to play and master.

    Don't be so quick to barter away a different soul's abilities in order to justify changes to a soul you perceive as being more worthy. We all have our favorite souls.
    Last edited by Rarz; 08-14-2014 at 08:44 AM.

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    Prophet of Telara Morwath's Avatar
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    Leave Defiler alone.
    Also I don't see a single reason to revamp soul which is perfectly balanced in PvP, just because someone doesn't like to play it in PvE.
    Last edited by Morwath; 08-14-2014 at 09:54 AM.

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    Sentinal is a pvp soul, don't try to change it to fill an unneeded pve niche.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Emtbob View Post
    Should give Warlord a 30% link and make necro better for the 30% link.
    This is not what is needed. The balance between current Necro and Defiler is non existent. Even if you buffed necro damage to somewhat respectable levels or gave Warlord a link, Defiler would still be the better option due to the 20% link, metamorphosis, battle res, 5% non-phys debuff, and unstable transformation.

    The only reason the soul is currently "balanced" (against what?) in PvP is because the links were nerfed. They need a similar reduction on the PvE side of things to go along with the mechanic negater UT being nerfed. Links ultimately being 20/15/10/5% is much more realistic and even then it is still a heavy dose of damage reduction that some encounters may benefit from.
    Last edited by haybale; 08-14-2014 at 04:39 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rarz View Post
    Just because you don't understand Defiler or don't like it, doesn't mean it needs to go away or be nerfed. I enjoy the class a lot, it can heal and do dps as the fight demands. It supports the rest of the raid and is interesting to play and master.

    Don't be so quick to barter away a different soul's abilities in order to justify changes to a soul you perceive as being more worthy. We all have our favorite souls.
    I fully understand this soul. This has nothing to do with favoritism. I do not want to see it gutted. I want to see it not be required on every single progression encounter. It goes against all that Trion has been building on that every class can perform every role. A similar issue is found with the current iteration of Purifier and how overpowered Oracle is compared to Bard.
    Last edited by haybale; 08-14-2014 at 04:40 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Narwyn View Post
    Sentinal is a pvp soul, don't try to change it to fill an unneeded pve niche.
    I agree that sentinel doesn't need to be revamped but there are no pure "pvp" souls anymore. It is currently extraordinarily outmatched by 61 physician in anything regarding pve and phys draws the most comparisons to sentinel. The gap that currently exists between these two souls in raw hps and capabilities shouldn't be nearly as wide.
    Last edited by haybale; 08-14-2014 at 04:44 PM.
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    Flame of life really doesn't mean much. Is it nice? Yeah but on a true burst healing fight that is not enough. Look at Crucia during progression POST double dip fix (that killed Bard/tac and hurt Chloros raid healing). No one was saying "we don't need a Warden...Flame of Life will handle all the orbitals.".
    1 encounter and i am pretty sure FoL didnt exist during the time you speak of. I may not be recalling that correctly Regardless warden is irrelevant in all of Tier 2 with possibly an exception on Volan.

    The problem isn't Warden as much as it is content driven. In T1 there were plenty of fights where you needed wardens.
    Again 1 of those T1 encounters may of needed a warden if progression had started with phystact in existence. Not plenty of them.
    Take the remaining soul and make it a dps soul. Maybe a counter part to Inquis. Inquis should always do less dps than say Ranger or Warlock imo because it has more utility. Make the former healer basically a straight on ST ranged damage dealer that can duke it out with the other top dogs .
    I disagree we already have irrelevent dps souls on most content. A major revamp isnt needed. Just balance the souls!
    Last edited by haybale; 08-14-2014 at 04:52 PM.
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    Other callings need something like Defiler so it wont be as mandatory as it is now. It's kinda like Bard pre-2.7 where you always had to bring one.

    Sentinel have great healing but lack bonus buffs like Chloro's WG or Phys/Tact hybrids Power Core.

    I agree on Flame of Life and Life's Rapture, it just gimp the real aoe healers.
    Quote Originally Posted by elfaraon View Post
    you really need to play more pyro . I bet you are a warrior or rogue so your opinion is not accurate at all. By the way pyro is not even close to have the highest burst in the game tell that to a sin or warlord

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    Quote Originally Posted by Otts View Post
    Other callings need something like Defiler so it wont be as mandatory as it is now. It's kinda like Bard pre-2.7 where you always had to bring one.
    I dont think this is the right solution since it forces revamps of multiple souls. Making Defiler less than mandatory is the best route.

    Sentinel have great healing but lack bonus buffs like Chloro's WG or Phys/Tact hybrids Power Core.
    Sentinels healing is garbage compared to both of those souls in PvE. A dps raid buff would really not do anything for that soul. It is a pure ST healing in the most extreme form and it's downright outmatched at that by Chloro, Puri and Physician while providing no raid wide benefit.
    Last edited by haybale; 08-14-2014 at 05:28 PM.
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    I don't see how you can make 30% damage reduction less mandatory.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MNM View Post
    I don't see how you can make 30% damage reduction less mandatory.
    By making it not 30%?
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    Quote Originally Posted by haybale View Post
    1 encounter and i am pretty sure FoL didnt exist during the time you speak of. I may not be recalling that correctly Regardless warden is irrelevant in all of Tier 2 with possibly an exception on Volan.

    Again 1 of those T1 encounters may of needed a warden if progression had started with phystact in existence. Not plenty of them.
    I disagree we already have irrelevent dps souls on most content. A major revamp isnt needed. Just balance the souls!
    Sorry but first like another said Defiler needs no change.

    Second you exaggerate or forget t1. For most of t1 flame of life existed. You still needed a warden on multiple fights during progression because of burst damage, not just Crucia. It certainly doesn't feel like that now of course because of the 1-2 punch of the content being nerfed directly and the fact that for the most part people are now over geared either because they are doing "old content", the intro of IDH that gives basically tier 1.5 gear and the gear that had an additional upgrade level added to it.

    T2 indeed has less need for wardens and t3 just about zero but AGAIN this is because of the nature of the content. Warden is designed to be a burst raid healer. Phys/tac CAN'T burst heal a raid...it's burst covers 5 people. It can only raid heal effectively in the same content a Cloro can.

    Next there is NO way to make Sent viable in raid content. In t1 it had NO place, in t2 one fight Iny. This is because as a single tank HEALER it will never be competitive with a single tank SHIELDER exists. You can talk about balancing it but there is no way to balance its current heals. So it makes from a healing perspective the most sense to just make it do something else. The only other option is to completely redux both Sent and Puri to an extent.

    As such when it comes to not being a puri or defiler it makes the most sense to simply accept the reality that the Content devs and Calling devs don't talk and that there will be a tier where lots of burst healing is not needed.

    There is a reason for this burst healing focus. To not have healing mages and clerics constantly pissing in each other cheerios the devs made mages steady state through put and clerics burst healing/shielding/damage prevention. This is a good way to balance things so long as the content devs take it into account. They don't always do this though so yeah it sucks for a bit IF you just want to be a Warden HOWEVER if you see you can be more than just that you have a place.

    Now things are no doubt complicated by Liberator BUT making the remaining soul able to swap between ST and AOE burst healing would make the Cleric healer more flexible and thus more useful in different situations.

    I think Phys proves how this is viable. 61 Phys has the usefulness in PvE that Sent does...meaning very little if any. However Phys/tac, not only because it does steady state heals but because it can go from Raid to ST heals on a CD has a firmer place. In essence I am suggesting you turn the "new" cleric healer into a burst version of Chloro or Phys/tac. One of the things Clerics have often complained about is Chloros ability to do both. With the addition of new healing souls the old pissing match dynamic is going to be worse so long as the cleric souls remain one trick ponies that have direct competition.

    Onto dps. Cleric has one dps class that is highly situational...Druid. Druid is in a similar situation to NB in that it takes a niche fight with burst damage needed that makes it even a consideration. Cabbie is no more useless than Champ or Sabos, and Shaman is useful.

    Inquis is in a weird situation a kin to MM. It brings necessary utility in the interrupt AND purge. Because of that its dps will always be lower than more "pure ranged" dps. We may or may not agree that such utility should be in a dps spec but if the dps of such a soul was truly competitive there would be no reason not to stack the souls that bring the dps AND utility. Many clerics, maybe not you bit many, will say this time should not apply to Clerics though since they only have one ranged dps soul.

    Because of this my solution regarding making a single AoE/ST healer addresses two concerns. First it fixes the fact Sent without some serious redux to both it and Puri is a redheaded step child. Second it give Cleric a more "pure" ST ranged dps soul and thus makes the balancing of ranged dps more uniform across the callings. With how Kervik has redone Cabbie and SC we see a way to balance healing inside Cleric AND with how BM and now Reaver are repurposed we see a way to address the Cleric ST ranged dps issue without creating an imbalance with one calling having the best of both worlds, top tier dps with best is class utility.
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

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