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Thread: 3.0 Cleric Healing

  1. #31
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    Thanks for the welcome. Forgive me for asking for balance. It does not belong here.
    Haybale@Greybriar

  2. #32
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    On my personal wish list for the Warden is a new skill as a toggle that allows you to increase the duration of Soothing Stream to 1h, but limit it to 4 stacks total (all targets combined). Because I get so sick of hitting that button every 15s.

  3. #33
    Ascendant Galibier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by haybale View Post
    Thanks for the welcome. Forgive me for asking for balance. It does not belong here.
    My point is, sadly that since Beta 1, in a system like this, Trion has shown "balance" is impossible when it comes to souls, especially in light of the fact that the callings have an imbalance in terms of how many souls they have to perform specific roles. Don't get me wrong it annoys me too. I screamed for it myself since the betas. However I realized eventually that the best we can hope for is balance between callings not specific souls.
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galibier View Post
    My point is, sadly that since Beta 1, in a system like this, Trion has shown "balance" is impossible when it comes to souls, especially in light of the fact that the callings have an imbalance in terms of how many souls they have to perform specific roles. Don't get me wrong it annoys me too. I screamed for it myself since the betas. However I realized eventually that the best we can hope for is balance between callings not specific souls.
    Meh they can balance between souls fairly well. The 3 primary melee para/sin/sham souls are well balanced atm imo. Tank souls are balanced. Phystact and chloro are balanced fairly well against one another. Warden and lib are decentish with one another. Temp ranger and inq are semi close. There are several souls that either have nothing to balance against (puri/defiler) or they are simply outcasts (sent) for reasons unknown. Puri and defiler don't have a logical comparison which creates an issue where an op capability goes unchecked or ignored as it has.
    Last edited by haybale; 08-15-2014 at 09:55 AM.
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  5. #35
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    Flame of Life was added at the end of Infinity Gate raid testing. It wasn't relevant in tier 1, especially not on Crucia. You should have been healing Orbital with Warden cooldowns. I agree with haybale that FoL should be removed from the game (along with Life's Rapture), because lolnotdying to mechanics that should necessitate proper raid healer cooldown usage is just silly.

    Defiler links are necessary in PvE purely because Defiler exists. If 30/20% links were removed, tank damage would be balanced accordingly. As much as I like the mechanics and playstyle of Defiler, it would be healthier for the game if the damage interception was ditched. However this would require major restructuring of the Defiler soul, and I can't see that happening.
    Last edited by Sheridyn; 08-15-2014 at 10:37 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheridyn View Post
    Flame of Life was added at the end of Infinity Gate raid testing. It wasn't relevant in tier 1, especially not on Crucia. You should have been healing Orbital with Warden cooldowns. I agree with haybale that FoL should be removed from the game (along with Life's Rapture), because lolnotdying to mechanics that should necessitate proper raid healer cooldown usage is just silly.

    Defiler links are necessary in PvE purely because Defiler exists. If 30/20% links were removed, tank damage would be balanced accordingly. As much as I like the mechanics and playstyle of Defiler, it would be healthier for the game if the damage interception was ditched. However this would require major restructuring of the Defiler soul, and I can't see that happening.
    Basic idea:
    Heals for X amount to your links while dealing damage. Increases healing received from the defiler by 5/10/20/30%. Builds Foul Growth evenly across links. Some adjustment for AoE damage. AoE clense for targeted links + random. Sustained healing should be a bit less than chloro to make up for the large burst ability in defiler. Sacred Heart: you recieve X% of healing from your links. Fix buggyness with warden and defiler.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emtbob View Post
    Basic idea:
    Heals for X amount to your links while dealing damage. Increases healing received from the defiler by 5/10/20/30%. Builds Foul Growth evenly across links. Some adjustment for AoE damage. AoE clense for targeted links + random. Sustained healing should be a bit less than chloro to make up for the large burst ability in defiler. Sacred Heart: you recieve X% of healing from your links. Fix buggyness with warden and defiler.
    I would like the links essentially being half of what they are now while bumping up defilers healing potential just slightly. Basing healing modifiers off the power of the link would be cool as you mentioned.
    Last edited by haybale; 08-15-2014 at 12:18 PM.
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by haybale View Post
    I would like the links essentially being half of what they are now while bumping up defilers healing potential just slightly. Basing healing modifiers off the power of the link would be cool as you mentioned.

    I really don't like how foul growth doesn't build on the lesser links. It turns into a random useless healing. If it built at 20/40% on all links it would build slower, but stay on for activation for a less often but dependable burst. Combine that with slightly more healing over time to make Defiler healing more manageable.

    Any %damage reduction is probably too powerful unless it was small, like 10% max, and also given to other classes, like warlord and necro as I suggested earlier, to make up replacing the defiler in progression.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by haybale View Post
    Meh they can balance between souls fairly well. The 3 primary melee para/sin/sham souls are well balanced atm imo. Tank souls are balanced. Phystact and chloro are balanced fairly well against one another. Warden and lib are decentish with one another. Temp ranger and inq are semi close. There are several souls that either have nothing to balance against (puri/defiler) or they are simply outcasts (sent) for reasons unknown. Puri and defiler don't have a logical comparison which creates an issue where an op capability goes unchecked or ignored as it has.
    In individual cases for a particular role yes. You are not talking about that though. Are Assassin, NB and Bladedancer? How's about Warlock, Pyro (pre-broken buff), Element a list and Necro?.

    This is what I mean when I said about 5 times before about balancing within the callings? /facepalm. It has never happened and never will happen. Inside the callings there will always be useless souls...not just because of internal but external factors.

    BTW if anyone think flame of life is lolz@mechanics. How convenient because one button macro spamming an entire raid with shield to increase constant encounter HP? Puri has VERY little to do with Wardens spot again but yeah...whatever scapegoats needed and those less like become it.
    Last edited by Galibier; 08-15-2014 at 01:37 PM.
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheridyn View Post
    Defiler links are necessary in PvE purely because Defiler exists. If 30/20% links were removed, tank damage would be balanced accordingly. As much as I like the mechanics and playstyle of Defiler, it would be healthier for the game if the damage interception was ditched. However this would require major restructuring of the Defiler soul, and I can't see that happening.
    I don't think a major restructuring would be necessary if the links were just heavily reduced. Rampant Growth could stand a buff/additional effect in that situation but everything else could remain for the most part in place as is.
    Last edited by haybale; 08-15-2014 at 02:42 PM.
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  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by haybale View Post
    I don't think a major restructuring would be necessary if the links were just heavily reduced. Rampant Growth could stand a buff/additional effect in that situation but everything else could remain for the most part in place as is.
    I don't think a 50% reduction like mentioned would be enough.

    To me defiler is all about the links, and I'm fairly certain it would need a harsh enough nerf for the links to be essentially not really doing much, which is like a remake just without the fun new stuff.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by haybale View Post
    I would like the links essentially being half of what they are now while bumping up defilers healing potential just slightly. Basing healing modifiers off the power of the link would be cool as you mentioned.
    I have contradicting thoughts on this.

    1. More dependable heals being generated on other-than-tank players would be nice.
    2. If it's going to have links nerfed and end up more heal focused, it needs to have drastic cuts in mana costs.
    3. Cleric doesn't need more healing focused souls.

    I'm not sure how to reconcile these opinions to something coherent.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taledra View Post
    I have contradicting thoughts on this.

    1. More dependable heals being generated on other-than-tank players would be nice.
    2. If it's going to have links nerfed and end up more heal focused, it needs to have drastic cuts in mana costs.
    3. Cleric doesn't need more healing focused souls.

    I'm not sure how to reconcile these opinions to something coherent.
    Lol I agree no more healing souls but anything added to defiler healing should be built into rampant which is building more off its dps .
    Haybale@Greybriar

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by haybale View Post
    Lol I agree no more healing souls but anything added to defiler healing should be built into rampant which is building more off its dps .
    I'd prefer to see the damage reduction part removed and defiler just being a dps to heal soul.

  15. #45
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    It's funny that we're talking about defiler here. We talked with usman about defiler a little more than a month ago, not being frankly happy about its state, and I too think that it's not a good design to have fights built upon the necessity of having a defiler (and they are until you overgear the content).

    I started writing a post about it that I intended to finish during the week-end.

    It's not great fun for defiler having RNG in the way of Foul Growth. Another big problem of the defiler is eating raid wide AOE damage that is pourcentage based. This is even a bigger problem when there is a great gear disparity between tanks and the defiler. For example, being a defiler on Regulos demands quite a bit of attention, but if the defiler has T1 gear and the tanks have T3 gear, it becomes especially hard surviving the encounter.

    Following this problem, we discussed various ways of changing the current defiler, ranging from delaying the intercepted damage by a couple of seconds, or capping how much damage the defiler can take from links (which would be cheating), and talked about the soul more as a whole.

    Here are some suggestions to defiler:

    *Talent: Rampant Growth: Give your defiler damaging abilities a 50/100% chance to apply Foul Growth to the targets of your links.
    -> Removes the RNG from the soul, and makes the links a bit fairer, giving the possibility to heal each link target rather than only the strongest, who already recieves less damage than the others.

    *Talent: Feedback: Triggers Foul Growth on the targets of your links, intercepting a portion of the healing from Foul Growth to heal the defiler, based on the intercept percentage of the link. Doesn't intercept healing from the Beacon of Despair.
    -> Coupled with above change, would make defiler a great dungeon healer, yet not enough for a 10man or 20man, since it would be healing too slowly and not enough targets.

    *Talent: Pain Transmission: In its current form, is way too dependant on other players/what the fight allows. The cap of 3 enemies per link is also sort of wierd. Instead, it would be preferable than an enemy can't be hit more than 3 times per Pain Transmission (which would allow full damage at range from two tanks + beacon, or in melee with 2 tanks + defiler), and adjust Pain Transmission's damage in consequence.
    As I remember it, Usman would also like that Pain Transmission just take less importance in the rotation, and that Somatic Desecration is buffed somehow (with a Frostbite like Talent maybe, opening for a more interesting dpsing rotation). Indeed, in the current iteration of the soul, maximum dps is achieved by casting the least possible amount of Somatic Desecration.

    *Soul mechanic: Pain. I'd like the Defiler to build stacks of Pain whenever it intercepts damage. Keeping a high amount of stacks should be somehow dangerous. For example, each stacks of Pain would remove X% of the max health of the defiler. Stacks would boost the damage of Bond of Pain and Pain Transmission, while these abilities also consume them.

    *Unstable Transformation: It is too powerful in its current form. I would like this ability to be reworked somehow. I feel like it should at least needs the defiler to channel the ability while it is on given how strong it is. If Pain is introduced, maybe Unstable Trasnformation could be channeled for X seconds for each stack of Pain (maximum Y seconds), reducing target's incoming damage, while dealing damage to attackers. Or something.


    Overall, while I like Defiler, I feel like encounters should not be designed around the necessity of bringing a Defiler, and so that the links and Unstable Transformation should somehow be nerfed.
    <Apotheosys>@Typhiria
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