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Thread: Regular Communication & State of Cleric DPS

  1. #1
    Shield of Telara
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    Default Regular Communication & State of Cleric DPS

    I wanted to look at the state of cleric PVE dps from a different perspective than what has already been posted so I looked through all of Kervik's forum posts to see how he has handled clerics in the past and then drew some conclusions from his prior posts.

    I don't intend to bash Kervik and have this thread censored like prior threads or get suspended from the forums. On that note, before I go into Kevrik's prior posts, a quick shout out to the good things that have come from our class dev. When Kervik has done overhauls of cleric specs they have generally been praised. Personally, I liked the shaman changes. While I'm not the biggest fan of inquisitor, the changes were mostly praised. The Oracle soul was a success (bards do need a buff though!). The Puri changes were good as we went from a mindless 1 button spammer + cd's to a decent tank healer. Tank changes were meh as I liked spamming DoL and having easy mode tank. Finally, while it is not yet optimal for PVE the cab changes and the playstyle that resulted were good changes.

    Now, on to Kervik's forum posts. I went through all of his posts since he became the cleric dev. I picked out these three because I feel they are pertinent to the current state of clerics. My thoughts follow his posts.

    Kevrik (1-18-13, http://forums.riftgame.com/game-discussions/classes-telara/cleric-discussion/344455-shaman-vs-inquisitor-parses-5.html#post4107185)

    Hey all,

    There are plans to take a look at cleric dps soon, particularly the Shaman's. I'll update you all when I have a better idea on what, if any, changes are in store. More feedback on what you all are seeing on live is always welcome though.
    Kervik (6-10-13, http://forums.riftgame.com/game-discussions/classes-telara/cleric-discussion/354471-cleric-suggestion-thread-27.html#post4284704)

    Hey all,

    Just wanted to let you all know you haven't been forgotten. As you may have noticed, there is a pass going on for Mages at the moment. Once that pass is finished, or at least further along, I'll be focusing my attention back on Clerics to work on getting some improvements out to you all.
    Kervik (11-15-13, http://forums.riftgame.com/game-discussions/classes-telara/cleric-discussion/362678-cleric-bug-discussion-rift-2-3-a-11.html#post4592608)
    Hey all,

    First off, my apologies for being absent from this forum for as long as I have been. I dropped the ball on communicating with you all and I’ll work on getting things back to regular communication or at least letting you know if there’s going to be a while that I’ll be absent ahead of time....

    The first post: I posted this to show that when he stated he would start looking at cleric dps it was approximately 6 months later that any changes went live.

    The second post: I only posted this to show that he has given cleric updates in the past just to let us know our class is up next.

    The third post: I posted this to show that there have been times in the past where Kervik acknowledged ignoring the cleric forums and his intent to have 'regular communication' with the clerics.

    My take: Based on the 6 month timeline noted above, I don't think we will see any major cleric changes in the near future. The best we can hope for is a flat dps increase for our PVE specs (a quick shout out to the rogue dev as it looks like he at least gave rogues a tiny, and much needed, dps boost). Right now no one has any idea if we can expect this flat boost as there has been no communication with our class dev recently. In the forum posts above, Kervik acknowledges dropping the ball with clerics and promises regular communication going forward. It would be nice if we received regular communication with our dev and some of that communication revolved around making cleric dps competitive again

    **Please don't turn this into a bashing thread. Forum mods have been quick to suspend/censor**
    Last edited by Attillaa; 07-31-2014 at 07:04 AM.

  2. #2
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    +1

    I agree with all this. It would be great if we could at least get some communication from our class dev so we know if something is being worked on, and some insight into what that something might be.

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    I wouldnt mind seeing death spells work with unified theory, maybe an instant soul drain after 5 death stacks

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    Communication is the most important aspect of any business. It doesn't matter how amazing your product or service is if you can't communicate effectively with your clients and customers.

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    Even though we all already knew this, its nice to know, and see wasn't crazy thinking we missed a post.

    communication is vital devs should be listening, and to be seen to making an effort equally to both their classes.

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    Rift Disciple njsdca's Avatar
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    I think we should all just back down with our pitchforks demanding responses, updates and/or changes to our class. I know we want to be acknowledged but it doesn't mean we have to be the loudest people in the room. I think if we're patient, precise with the ideas we have for changes and constructive but fair in our requests we'll create a much more open forum for discussion when we're on the board.

    I remember I wanted to try and compile a list of all the cleric changes and compare them to the other specs and make a point for what I thought was a lack of attention, but if it's not broken don't fix it. Trust that Kervik fixes things when they're in front of him and, as you've pointed out, he does so relatively well. We don't need to assume that because he hasn't made a post or doesn't have any changes planned that he's forgot about us, I promise you he hasn't.

    We should just wait till he comes to us and asks for our ideas and/or feedback. No need to try and get attention by being the loudest. Instead let's just discuss what changes we think are awesome and maybe compile a list of the ones we all agree on the most? Something productive while the Devs sort out the other callings.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by njsdca View Post
    I think we should all just back down with our pitchforks demanding responses, updates and/or changes to our class. I know we want to be acknowledged but it doesn't mean we have to be the loudest people in the room. I think if we're patient, precise with the ideas we have for changes and constructive but fair in our requests we'll create a much more open forum for discussion when we're on the board.

    I remember I wanted to try and compile a list of all the cleric changes and compare them to the other specs and make a point for what I thought was a lack of attention, but if it's not broken don't fix it. Trust that Kervik fixes things when they're in front of him and, as you've pointed out, he does so relatively well. We don't need to assume that because he hasn't made a post or doesn't have any changes planned that he's forgot about us, I promise you he hasn't.

    We should just wait till he comes to us and asks for our ideas and/or feedback. No need to try and get attention by being the loudest. Instead let's just discuss what changes we think are awesome and maybe compile a list of the ones we all agree on the most? Something productive while the Devs sort out the other callings.

    I hear where you are coming from, but I wouldn't classify this as pitchfork response. Sure, it is always good to give the class dev feedback and ideas, but we are flying blind here. It would be nice to have some direction (an update) from the class dev, i.e. hey guys we are looking at upping shaman/inq dps by 10%, please give me some ideas or we are looking at revamping shaman with these general concepts in mind...please give me some ideas. Instead, you are inferring that we pretend to be the class dev (with no idea what he actually wants) and do his job, but without the pay. I enjoy playing this game, but I have no interest wasting my time with stabs in the dark.

    Simply put, our class dev made a promise to have 'regular communication'. Clerics are firmly in last place in PVE dps and have been for a while. We are asking that our class dev follow through with the promised regular communication. If he wants to give us direction on where he is headed I'm more than happy to give feedback.
    Last edited by Attillaa; 07-31-2014 at 06:49 PM.

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    Rift Disciple njsdca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Attillaa View Post
    Simply put, our class dev made a promise to have 'regular communication'. Clerics are firmly in last place in PVE dps and have been for a while. We are asking that our class dev follow through with the promised regular communication. If he wants to give us direction on where he is headed I'm more than happy to give feedback.
    I feel ya man and trust me, I'd love to rip up the dps charts just like anyone else but what I'm saying is that we don't need a class dev to give us the "go ahead" on suggesting changes. I think Daglar has addressed these types of posts in the past when they're referencing bugs and stuff...

    ie. "Why are they working on <insert issue here> when they could be fixing the stuff that really matters."

    It's no doubt a battle trying to communicate with Devs and rightfully so, they're working on development and implementation of an expansion at the moment, but without suggestions the "stuff that really matters" part is really subjective. I think we need to objectively address specific issues. We need a solid game plan before we ask for adjustments. It might not be our job to lead or facilitate those adjustments but we can't just say "fix our DPS". We know our class mechanics the best, why not hook a brotha (Kervik) up with some ideas?

    As for the communication thing, I think it really comes down to all of us understanding that class changes are cyclical. We need to start communicating with each other, we have some great resources in Ahov, Packerdowner, Haybale, Adustum and others that know the class inside and out... let's build a community that's involved so when our class is on the drawing board we can get the most out of the changes.
    Last edited by njsdca; 07-31-2014 at 08:16 PM.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by njsdca View Post
    I think we should all just back down with our pitchforks demanding responses, updates and/or changes to our class. I know we want to be acknowledged but it doesn't mean we have to be the loudest people in the room. I think if we're patient, precise with the ideas we have for changes and constructive but fair in our requests we'll create a much more open forum for discussion when we're on the board.

    I remember I wanted to try and compile a list of all the cleric changes and compare them to the other specs and make a point for what I thought was a lack of attention, but if it's not broken don't fix it. Trust that Kervik fixes things when they're in front of him and, as you've pointed out, he does so relatively well. We don't need to assume that because he hasn't made a post or doesn't have any changes planned that he's forgot about us, I promise you he hasn't.

    We should just wait till he comes to us and asks for our ideas and/or feedback. No need to try and get attention by being the loudest. Instead let's just discuss what changes we think are awesome and maybe compile a list of the ones we all agree on the most? Something productive while the Devs sort out the other callings.
    I get where you're coming from, but how hard would it be for a developer, any developer, to post a thread saying "nothing's in the works for DPS Clerics right now, but we're aware of your concerns and they will be addressed in the future" or something like that? It would take less than 5 minutes and it would let us know someone is listening.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by njsdca View Post
    I feel ya man and trust me, I'd love to rip up the dps charts just like anyone else but what I'm saying is that we don't need a class dev to give us the "go ahead" on suggesting changes. I think Daglar has addressed these types of posts in the past when they're referencing bugs and stuff...

    ie. "Why are they working on <insert issue here> when they could be fixing the stuff that really matters."

    It's no doubt a battle trying to communicate with Devs and rightfully so, they're working on development and implementation of an expansion at the moment, but without suggestions the "stuff that really matters" part is really subjective. I think we need to objectively address specific issues. We need a solid game plan before we ask for adjustments. It might not be our job to lead or facilitate those adjustments but we can't just say "fix our DPS". We know our class mechanics the best, why not hook a brotha (Kervik) up with some ideas?

    As for the communication thing, I think it really comes down to all of us understanding that class changes are cyclical. We need to start communicating with each other, we have some great resources in Ahov, Packerdowner, Haybale, Adustum and others that know the class inside and out... let's build a community that's involved so when our class is on the drawing board we can get the most out of the changes.
    I agree with everything you are saying.

    Yet, imo, that is not an excuse for no communication. It is great to have a good cleric community. It is even better if that cleric community is in 'regular communication' with the class dev.

    This is my own thoughts on class changes atm: Based on the OP it seems like any major changes are 6+ months out. I would like to have competitive dps before 3.0. That means a flat dps increase (something like the small bandaid rogues received yesterday). It would be nice to talk about major changes, but in the mean time, a flat dps bump to be competitive is what most are asking for. We have been last, or near last, in dps for a while now.

  11. #11
    RIFT Guide Writer fufi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by njsdca View Post
    IIt's no doubt a battle trying to communicate with Devs and rightfully so, they're working on development and implementation of an expansion at the moment, but without suggestions the "stuff that really matters" part is really subjective. I think we need to objectively address specific issues. We need a solid game plan before we ask for adjustments. It might not be our job to lead or facilitate those adjustments but we can't just say "fix our DPS". We know our class mechanics the best, why not hook a brotha (Kervik) up with some ideas.
    In the last three weeks, there has been at least three threads with really simple changes proposed originally by usman to 3 of the base talents of shaman that would bump shaman and inquisitor up a bit in dps, and countless other suggestions. There simply is no response from anyone, except from a thread being closed by a moderator.
    <Apotheosys>@Typhiria
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    Quote Originally Posted by fufi View Post
    In the last three weeks, there has been at least three threads with really simple changes proposed originally by usman to 3 of the base talents of shaman that would bump shaman and inquisitor up a bit in dps, and countless other suggestions. There simply is no response from anyone, except from a thread being closed by a moderator.
    Isn't it fun though, it's like talking to a wall.

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    Quote Originally Posted by harrydesmart View Post
    Isn't it fun though, it's like talking to a wall.
    It's to be expected that a wall doesn't answer you though. When a human ignores another like this, it is an insult.

    But who knows... Maybe there is no answer because there will be a nice surprise in next weeks 2.8 patch. Otherwise, the pitchforks and torches are justified. Lol!

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    I understand Mages had some broken builds/souls that required fixing. Their AoE soul got a major rework and is now part of their top ST DPS build selection, Cabalist got a rework before that and is now useful for.....well trash AoE like it was before with no real usage on bosses still. our Tank soul got reworked to bring us inline with other tanks so now we don't excel too much lolvation threat/agro front which tbh wasn't a needed change but we got some nice things out of it, mainly the Doctrines, but it wasn't broken in terms of use to begin with.

    none of Clerics souls are "broken" as such but could do with some tweaks for QoL and to bring our DPS back inline since we are again at the bottom of the DPS pile with no way to touch the top end Warriors/Mages (Rogues need a slight buff as well but Vladd will take care of them). we have been brought inline with the healing and tanking to stop us out performing the other classes (although Puri is still a requirement for most fights) but our DPS hasn't been brought inline?

    things need to be balanced, if you take away and reduce one aspect then a different one needs to be boosted to compensate. at the moment it seems we are being brought down to other classes level in healing and tanking but our DPS isn't being boosted to compensate.

    Due to the holiday season we have had some of our raiders missing and we are filling raids with some other guild members and as a result more Clerics, to the point we have more Clerics than of the other callings. this has resulted in us struggling on some DPS checks where before we could do them easily with less Clerics. For example Thrax is now a struggle where all 20 members have to be alive at the end (and we only have ~1s to spare), whereas before we could afford 2-3 DPS dead on the last phase (more if we had a few extra Warriors in the raid).

    I don't care if we get any major changes before 3.0 or not, would be nice to atleast be told if there are any plans to do x to y soul or not. I don't like the sound of a "Mein of Agression" fix again but tbh ill take it if that's all we get offered, atleast it will allow us to keep up until 3.0.

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    RIFT Guide Writer fufi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fliptrik View Post
    I understand Mages had some broken builds/souls that required fixing. Their AoE soul got a major rework and is now part of their top ST DPS build selection, Cabalist got a rework before that and is now useful for.....well trash AoE like it was before with no real usage on bosses still.
    To be fair, cabalist is strong on Greenscale (where you won't stack them, obviously) and Akylios, like Saboteur and Stormcaller. Cabalist rework was very good. But obviously that's not our main concern.
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