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Thread: Is warden too complicated for the current player base?

  1. #1
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    Default Is warden too complicated for the current player base?

    So due to my hectic work schedule and traveling I have left the guild life and started to pug all my raids. For the most part the pugs I get into are pretty decent, and the players seem to have a pretty good handle on the spec they are playing, except the warden.

    For the past couple months easily 4 out of every 5 wardens I play with in these pugs don't seem to have a clue how to really play the spec. What I mean by this is that that their shared excess healing is virtually non-existent, and they are usually pulling around 100-200 dps. A lot of the time I check the parse and see healing cataract as their #1 healing ability.

    As I said before, the pugs I get into are pretty decent (usually full clears of t1, and 2/3 2/5 t2). So the wardens I see are fairly decently geared and (I assume) have been playing the class for a decent amount of time. Most of the time we have to make healing changes to make up for the bad wardens, but sometimes the fact that everyone is well geared (for the content) we are able to just push though despite the incompetence.

    I have tried to make suggestions to some of these players, but they usually get extremely defensive and tell me I don't know what I am talking about (which may be true).

    So after I see this from almost every warden I pug with, I have started to wonder if maybe the spec is just too hard for the current player base. When I compare it to chloro raid healing, there is definitely more to pay attention to with warden, and I don't really know how the difficulty level measure up to liberator. But with encounters designed around being able to play specs to their fullest, it is no wonder why so many mid level guilds have so much trouble killing bosses like Volan, which require healers to know how to play their specs well.

    I personally don't think the spec is actually too difficult, but I do think lots of clerics in mid-low level guilds don't play the spec to it's fullest, causing entire guilds to possibly stunt progression due to this.

    There are of course many other specs that people don't fully utilize, but the warden is the one I see most often, and feel that it is extremely detrimental to a raids success.

    Sorry for the long post, just curious what other people think about this problem, or if they don't see a problem at all.
    Dreezie

  2. #2
    Ascendant irkiz's Avatar
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    If no one died, it shouldn't matter. They did their job. It's not like they are doing top-end raiding.

    Anyway, a warden doing 200 dps should still be the last person to blame if a pug wipes due to lack of dps in those raids.
    Last edited by irkiz; 06-14-2014 at 10:09 AM.
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    Incoming speculation:

    Everyone says warden is trash, so nobody uses it until endgame. Then they learn to play the spec while in whatever environment they can find that has a need for warden. There aren't many outside Port Scion and raids. The healing dummies aren't great practice either, I guess because you can't group with them.

    Personally, I find warden/sent hybrid great for guild run dungeons. Never played 61 warden - haven't been a need to so far. Might be a similar issue for other players. The 40ish points I have in warden - easy spec to play. Unsure about 61 variant, if I ever find a need for it pre-raid, I'll give it a shot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by irkiz View Post
    If no one died, it shouldn't matter. They did their job. It's not like they are doing top-end raiding.

    Anyway, a warden doing 200 dps should still be the last person to blame if a pug wipes due to lack of dps in those raids.
    While I appreciate your post, your response is kind of the epitome of what I am talking about.

    If you think I am worried about warden dps like the actual damage output of the warden is going to make or break the enrage timer, then you don't fully understand how warden healing works either.

    I guess I just have a fundamentally different way of looking at healing in a raid environment than you do. To me, just because you killed a boss and most of your raid lived, does not mean you necessarily are doing your job correctly, especially when you over-gear the content.
    Dreezie

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taledra View Post
    Incoming speculation:

    Everyone says warden is trash, so nobody uses it until endgame. Then they learn to play the spec while in whatever environment they can find that has a need for warden. There aren't many outside Port Scion and raids. The healing dummies aren't great practice either, I guess because you can't group with them.

    Personally, I find warden/sent hybrid great for guild run dungeons. Never played 61 warden - haven't been a need to so far. Might be a similar issue for other players. The 40ish points I have in warden - easy spec to play. Unsure about 61 variant, if I ever find a need for it pre-raid, I'll give it a shot.
    I do have to agree with you somewhat here. New players don't really ever use warden while leveling/dungeon running, so when they do finally decide to try it out, it is a lot to take in all at once. And it is harder to practice at than say a dps spec.

    I personally found healing any warfront to be great practice for warden (even though it is not that great of a pvp spec), it gives you almost unlimited time to practice keeping your hots/dots up, and you get used to using your big CD's.
    Dreezie

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    Plane Walker Axarion's Avatar
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    Please don't dumb down warden because of bads.

    The soul could use a look at it's mana issues just like Sent, especially with Rogue and Warrior healers not having those issues but that's about it.

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    i imagine you are overhealing encounters, healing cataract spam seems right in that scenario.

    people soon learn when to time orbs/monsoon and use pools/effusion/wave when they are relied upon, it's not really that hard.

    300dps is just laziness, but might be due to the raid comp also, if you're just overhealing then little point in keeping depths up.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axarion View Post
    Please don't dumb down warden because of bads.

    The soul could use a look at it's mana issues just like Sent, especially with Rogue and Warrior healers not having those issues but that's about it.
    #show Cascade
    suppressmacrofailures
    cast @self Cascade
    cast Geyser

    can't use Geyser always to refresh Danger's of the Deep stacks, but it does keep your mana up.

    I can't get used to the fact that no matter how well I play warden there is a 10s gap in my group HoTs, and given that I am not the best warden player this tends to get close to 15s in the gap, unless I'm missing something with the class.

    with 5x DotD, Ripple -> Monsoon -> Ripple

    Ripple -> Ripple has a 10s gap that I have to cover with some other additional healing. Am I supposed to use downpour here?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doood View Post
    While I appreciate your post, your response is kind of the epitome of what I am talking about.

    If you think I am worried about warden dps like the actual damage output of the warden is going to make or break the enrage timer, then you don't fully understand how warden healing works either.

    I guess I just have a fundamentally different way of looking at healing in a raid environment than you do. To me, just because you killed a boss and most of your raid lived, does not mean you necessarily are doing your job correctly, especially when you over-gear the content.
    You are spot on with your post. I think in general most people don't truly know how to play their specs. Then there are some people who master one spec, but fail to truly understand the rest of them.

    I am by no means the best cleric out there, but feel I understand every cleric spec enough to be efficient. I think you need to be fairly intelligent to really understand and utilize all the specs in rift. Some may disagree with me, but I see it all the time where people are geared out but only doing half the damage of others with similar gear. You can't just mash buttons in rift and expect to win.

    Now there are some specs that are much easier, and with macros you can see some decent numbers, but that is not true for most specs(especially clerics).

    Clerics are just plagued by an overwhelming amount of viable and needed specs that are in general pretty complex. Defiler, Warden, Shaman, Inquisitor are all fairly complex if you don't put in the time to learn it or research it. Inquisitor isn't necessarily difficult to understand, but is difficult to keep dps comparable to other classes.

    I would suggest just kindly explaining how that certain mechanic works so they understand it, rather than saying they are doing it wrong and that they suck. I am sure you say it nicer than that, but it can come across like that online and most people have a hard time with criticism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by recurse View Post
    i imagine you are overhealing encounters, healing cataract spam seems right in that scenario.

    people soon learn when to time orbs/monsoon and use pools/effusion/wave when they are relied upon, it's not really that hard.

    300dps is just laziness, but might be due to the raid comp also, if you're just overhealing then little point in keeping depths up.
    I get what you are saying, but in these circumstances people are dying, so we weren't really over healing anything. Also, I don't quite understand the concept of cataract spam when the raid is topped up. Seems to me, with shared excess and all your hots rolling, healing cataract is a complete waste. I just think geyser spam/dot refresh/spot heal/mana regen is a much better use of time.
    Dreezie

  11. #11
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    Raid damage for the most part comes in bursts, so you time your abilities and CDs for when they are needed. You can't keep 100% up time on hots raid wide; you're not supposed to be able to.

    That would be ridiculously powerful if you could.

    Proper use of your HoT CDs along with orbs and your burst heal tools means you can heal through pretty much anything.

    Currently, the ultimate stress test for a warden is the first platform halo/extinction missiles part of Volan. If you can keep everyone on your platform alive through that as a warden, you've got warden down pat.

    Most people fail at it, though.
    So long, and thanks for all the fish~

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doood View Post
    I get what you are saying, but in these circumstances people are dying, so we weren't really over healing anything. Also, I don't quite understand the concept of cataract spam when the raid is topped up. Seems to me, with shared excess and all your hots rolling, healing cataract is a complete waste. I just think geyser spam/dot refresh/spot heal/mana regen is a much better use of time.
    if people are dying to unavoidable damage and the warden is spamming HC then you're right in trying to help them - if they don't listen i would say thats a player problem rather than a warden problem.

    optimally wardens won't heal when it's not needed so you're correct in the dps priority there.

  13. #13
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    I would think that in higher end raids, shared excess isn't existent mainly because they put their HoT's on the tank; else on themselves when there's high raid damage. Warden isn't a sustained healing spec and the only non-mana eating skill is HC. Warden CDs are vital to heavy raid damage and shouldn't be used unless necessary. Geyser spam would be viable if it didn't eat away at your mana.

  14. #14
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    Warden need to rework. reducing the cast time will be a good start.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by polarshift View Post
    Warden need to rework. reducing the cast time will be a good start.
    Do you even rift?
    Undecided! P90 Cleric | 9/9 FT-EE | 4/4 GA | 3/3 IG | 5/5 PB | BoB 2/4

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