As this has been pointed out to you many times, class balance is set around progression. Not casuals.Originally Posted by Mumnoch
In all honesty if you or another cleric in your guild are losing your healing spot to a chloro, it has nothing to do with WG or LE.
I never suggested Chloro was irreplacable. I suggested that the power core variant of physician is sub-optimal compared to chloro. This means it's still an option, but not the preferred one. In this same vein, every tank healer is sub-optimal compared to puri. If you're tank healing a progression fight, you need a puri. If there's AoE damage, you need a warden. You put chloros or physticians in there to support your clerics, not supplant them.
If Chloromancer's wild growth niche were lost, it would need burst capabilities on par with warden to compensate. This would make chloro strictly better than warden, which would be bad. If liberator were to recieve a wild growth analogue, it would need it's burst cooldowns tuned downward to be in line with chloromancer, which means it wouldn't be able to replace a warden, which is bad. If wardens recieved wild growth, they would either be strictly superior to chloromancer, or they would have to be nerfed in other areas to compensate, which would be bad. The only healing soul that could recieve wild growth is defiler, and it doesn't need anymore buffs. However, if defiler did recieve wild growth, chloro's would still have their niche as healers because you only want one defiler, but you want 2 wild growths.
Why must Power Core be 3 seconds longer than Wild Growth. Power Core is overpowered and must be given to other healing souls to balance. Wild Growth must be increased to 15 seconds for balance.
Now in reality those extra 3 seconds probably do not fully make up for Chloro personal dps but it bridges the gap quite a bit.
This thread is really going nowhere since 2 viable raid builds are interchangeable in the fact that they can provide a similar debuff. Why does it matter if it is in tact when the points in tact go towards a Chloro replacement healing build anyway. You lose a couple CD's that chloro doesn't have to begin with and yet you pick up another in Battle Remote. The tradeoff is similar.
Haybale@Greybriar
It is not correct, because Living Energy is provided by Archon, Bard, Oracle and BM.
You will always have two of those four in a raid and not lose a single buff.
The only thing that can be brought up is Wild Growth, and there are several limitations that Chloros face currently that justify its existence.
If Wild growth was given to another healing class, I would demand that Chloros limitations be addressed immediately to ensure its not endangered.
Oh but its not just the 3 links, it is also the healing abilities that Defiler possesses as well, and its cooldowns.
Necromancer needs to be the perfect replacement, just as you wish for Chloro to have a perfect replacement.
The thig is, if such a thing occurs, why even bother having Chloro around? Clone's make each other irrelevant because you'll want at least 1 of very calling. So...why?
It defeats the purpose if there are clones, and defeats the purpose of that soul to have a clone.
Shields provides eHP and decrease the amount of healing needed.
Link's decrease damage multiplcatively and lower the amount of healing needed tremendously.
This means you need less healers and can stack more DPS.
He never suggested that at all, you are simply reading what you want to read. As always.
It is, because that is how the game is designed.
Content is designed with the intent of entry level gear, it is not designed around having that tier's armor/weapons.
This is the same with the classes, their design is with progression in mind, because when you overgear content and can farm it, the classes hold less and less importance.
This is why DPS is always a controversial issue, because when Warriors were blowing Kain up with Riftspear, they literally killed the point of having any other kind of DPS for that encounter.
This is not the case with CHloro.
Living energy isn't necessary.
The 4 support classes provide it without any loss whatsoever so you have no argument there, and your constant screeching is tiresome.
WIld growth is held by phys/tact, so the option you want already exists.
Now if you want a perfect clone of Chloromancer, then you had better change Chloromancer itself to be a copy of the other Cleric healing souls, have a clone for defiler, puri, Warden, Icar, etc etc.
Beastmaster has Enrage but Archon does not.
Physician does not have Flame of Life like Purifier does.
Oracle has everything Bard has and MORE, it kills Bard and will get nerfed for sure.
Arbiter is unique in its gameplay and in its abilities.
There is no perfect substitute for any class and this is a good thing.
And Puri has Flame of life, Beastmaster has Enrage.
This is an argument of maintaining these abilities within their respective souls because they differentiate them from other souls.
On top of that, Chloro has many limitations that other healing souls do NOT face.
They have burst CD's that chloro does not possess.
They can cross heal where Chloro cannot.
They can substitute for sustained healing and a Chloro cannot substitute for burst healing.
You do not try to give away a soul's abilties and then keep everyone else unique. That just kills the other soul.
Gee, that sounds like Chloro.
Lacking in Single target cooldowns/Aoe cooldowns.
Oh and its not an exact clone of Chloro either.
That's a good thing.
Flame of life
Less damage taken = less healers needed = more DPS can be brought.
It has everything to do with DPS.
No it isn't, that is the physician/Riftstalker combo in PvP. At least get the specs right.
Stormcaller would like a word with you.
As would Pyro, Harbinger, Justicar, Inquisitor, RIftblade, Tempest, Paragon, Ranger, MM, etc etc.
Less damage taken = less HPS needed = more DPS can be brought.
It has everything to do with raid DPS.
Lol wut? Yes they would.
If I had to choose between a Chloro and a Warden on Crucia for progression I would bench that Chloro in a heart beat. The more easily can keep people up during Orbital strike the better.
It would also be much easier to cover any errors from the 5 lasers and cover the sudden raid damage that may strike due to errors.
Keeping the entire raid alive at the cost of 3k DPS? You'd be a terrible raid leader not to do it.
The only time you'd ever bring a Chloro at that point is if the damage wasn't present, in which case, its not relevant content.
As a side note, I actually support the idea of making defiler and necromancer somewhat interchangeable. Necromancer could have higher dps and worse cooldowns to warrant using a defiler for heavy damage fights and a necro for lighter damage fights.
This would also solve the issue of mages have two largely useless pet souls.
I was going to respond with quotes but the barrage of the exact same non-relevant excuses of a few of you has wore me down too much.
There is only 1 healer in the game you want in every 10 or 20 man raid and this is the Chloro. It is the backbone of every raid encounter and the preferred healer for group content for a number of reasons. The most important ones are Wild Growth and Living Energy. Every other healer is situational. Once you have your Chloro's sorted then you move on to picking up the other healers (if needed). <----None of you can dispute this, sucks you can't argue it I'm sure but /shrug it is what it is.
I feel that Wild Growth and Living Energy should be put on at least 1 other healing soul for obvious reasons. Some of you disagree. Glad to hear it.
does anyone agree with you? Like at all?
There are 2 healer classes you want in every encounter.
- Mage for Chloro
- Cleric for at least one of defiler, warden or puri.
There is no fight in 20 man content that does not want this.
this just somehow continues to escape you so much I still wonder if you have even been raiding outside of FT/EE + eggs.
Undecided! P90 Cleric | 9/9 FT-EE | 4/4 GA | 3/3 IG | 5/5 PB | BoB 2/4
I'm not going to give away any "secret strats" here, but this is not the case on current progression we are facing.
Again you ignore the balance that Trion uses. It is not about Cloro v Warden, Puri, Defiler, Sent. Is is about Mage v Cleric and using Trion's metric things are fine, even using the example you post above. What is funny is that you will not give voice to your real motive.
If we read all of your posts on this thread and eliminate the contradicting arguments we find the following. Your issue is that a Cleric can't replace a Cloro. I say this because you dismiss Rogues as "something that may well be needed" when the ONLY complaints I have seen about Physician involve PvP. Power Core has nothing to do with that and when addressing PvP issues you can fix the problem by addressing healing amounts in PvP. This is a quite self serving dodge that only further proves your bias. You then, passive aggressively imo, go onto argue that this is good because many guilds have issues finding mages that can Cloro but not clerics to create a false moral high ground. In this way you infer anyone who disagrees with you is an evil elitist.
Now if you didn't have this bias you could easily have made the following argument...
However when these fundamental changes have been raised you go on the offensive. Why? Because again your entire point is to make it so that Clerics are improved, at the expense of others. You want Clerics to replace mages. You even acknowledged earlier that your proposal would make this possible. However a fundamental change like thebone noted above would mean, yes a Cleric could replace a mage BUT a Mage could also replace a Cleric. The latter is unacceptable to you. You could be honest about this point. You have raged about Cleric Dps when they have one of the best melee and competitive ranged dps. You rage about the Justicar changes because they no linger have instant and effortless AoE aggro at range, even though they are still much desired as the best ranged aggro tank in the game. Now you want Clerics to have the utility of Mage Healers even when it is that Utility that makes it so clerics are simply not replacing them in a raid.There seem to be far more cleric than mage healers out there today. Because of this I think we need fundamental changes to how they heal so that we are not dependant on having X clerics and Y mages healing to successfully complete encounters.
Anyone with critical thinking skills sees that you have one goal here and it has nothing to do with making the game better rather with making your favorite calling better, regardless of the impact it has on the game.
Last edited by Galibier; 05-26-2014 at 06:10 PM.
Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.
As Warrior you have my deepest support for more specs with living energy a like abilities.
Apologies that you lack the patience and capability of actually refuting arguments that have refuted your premise repeatedly.
Repeating your stance does not an argument make.
And defiler, and Puri....
Congratulations for once again, your 20t(?) post is again a repeat of your stance.
I shall simply counter it...again by saying the following.
No. For Obvious reasons.
But none of your reasons are objectively fact based. You start with a simple premise "I want Clerics to have living energy and Wild growth.". You then say you need 1-2 Mage healers to raid, ignoring you need 2-3 Cleric healers. You say " I don't care if another calling can bring Wild Growth" but then when it is pointed out that another calling already does you go through a series of awkward rationalizations to dismiss it because your bluff was called. Then you go so far as to say that this change would help raids lacking mages. So you acknowledge that the impact of your proposal makes mages replaceable however since you completely ignore that certain Clerics are as vital as Cloros you can avoid the implication of your statement.
Indeed your reasons are clear. You want Clerics to be able to replace mages without a consequence to the desirability of Clerics. You are also correct many to not agree with you. The important bit you fail to note is that those who disagree do so for objective reasons and have noted them in response to your subjective and selfish reasons.
Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.
All the reason's I posted was objectively based. You always run Chloro for the heals+their own DPS contributions+the raid wide DPS increasers+the raid wide Ability cost reduction.
There is no other healer that brings these things to a raid.
You run Chloro + one or more of the other healing souls.
You do not run without at least one Chloro.
The reason's are plain as day, ignore them all you want, deny them all you want, make excuses all you want, but anyone with more than 2 brain cells know's your just in denial.
People have liked my points here and people have responded to this thread in support of another Healing Soul getting Wild Growth + Living Energy so it's not just me.
You ignoring the above commonly known truth's about the Chloro doesn't mean you've successfully defended your side of the argument, it just means I'm sick of having to explain it a 100 different ways while you ignore the above truths or try and justify them by saying things like (but you bring other healers too!).
Last edited by Mumnoch; 05-27-2014 at 10:26 AM.
Still have no idea why LE is part of this convo and is kept getting brought up.
Edit: But in all seriousness, a Chloro is a detriment on current progression we are facing.
Last edited by Sedvick; 05-27-2014 at 10:33 AM.
If I was a dev, I wouldnt do it simply because I dont want to run the risk of having 100% wg uptime and having to rebalance everything around it. As it is now, since only two souls have it, its a detriment for raids to have it at 100% uptime.
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