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Thread: 20 mans and cleric healers...

  1. #1
    Ascendant Xenoheart's Avatar
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    Default 20 mans and cleric healers...

    So this has been my experience with cleric healing after day 1 of changes:

    I'm finding I'm only using puri in 20 mans on gel idea an that's it. Other times I'm finding the raid asking for either another warden or to run dps.

    More often it's been DPS while having another Mage go chloro. Our healing setup, not counting niche situations, contains usually a defiles and two or three chloros now.

    Why? Cause chloros have multiple spot heals and raid assistance even while tank healing. People argued a lot to bring a puri for the additional 5% damage buff for six seconds on 10 peeps once every minute and a half. Well we found it better to ditch the puri, gain a larger variety of heals on more targets and get another 10% damage buff for 12 seconds for ALL party members on a 45 second CD and can switch to either raid or tank heals if a healer dies.

    Unfortunately no cleric healing spec has that versatility in 20 mans so it's usually 3 chloros and a defiled now. Which is lame but it's what works the best/easiest.

    TLDR: we ditched puri and added a chloro. That's just wack. Personal opinion is cleric healing still needs lots more work and added versatility and utility to make a comeback for 20 mans. I find it silly that mages are the healers now in 20 mans.

    NOTE: I still find sent and puri super strong in 10 and 5 mans. This post is not for those.
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  2. #2
    Ascendant Aeonblade's Avatar
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    Trion is far too busy playing Inquisitor to fix raid healing.
    Leondria 60 P6x Mage

  3. #3
    Shield of Telara
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    Puri was straight up broken for many fights. The ability to give your entire raid a bubble for 30-50% of their life is over the top. It allowed people to derp mechanics except for the few instant death ones, and in general gave other healers more leeway with their reaction times.

    Chloro is awesome, but it has numerous drawbacks. Most noteably the fact that chloro's can't heal other chloros. So if your raid is running 3, then you are severely overhealing the fight, because otherwise the mage would be dead since he is only recieving heals from himself and the bard, where as the rest of the raid is being healed from 3 chloros and the bard. Secondly, they have no real CD's to handle burst ae dmg such as orbital strike, or 4th boss TDQ, although at this point the severe overgearing makes up for it. Meanwhile warden has monsoon, and puri has their new uber 6 second heal, and who knows what mechanics the new 20 man dungeons will have.

    But by all means, if you want to go back to when 60-80% of raiding clerics were forced into healing then thats fine by me. I'll gladly go dps for a change.

  4. #4
    Rift Disciple
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    Vexare is right about the draw backs for chloro and there is never a need for three to be honest. Normally all you need to two chloro, one MT and one raid, then a warden to cover the chloro weakness of burst healing. Puri is kinda of sub for a chloro now, like nerco can sub for defiler it is just giving you more options

  5. #5
    Ascendant Xenoheart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vexare View Post
    Puri was straight up broken for many fights. The ability to give your entire raid a bubble for 30-50% of their life is over the top. It allowed people to derp mechanics except for the few instant death ones, and in general gave other healers more leeway with their reaction times.

    Chloro is awesome, but it has numerous drawbacks. Most noteably the fact that chloro's can't heal other chloros. So if your raid is running 3, then you are severely overhealing the fight, because otherwise the mage would be dead since he is only recieving heals from himself and the bard, where as the rest of the raid is being healed from 3 chloros and the bard. Secondly, they have no real CD's to handle burst ae dmg such as orbital strike, or 4th boss TDQ, although at this point the severe overgearing makes up for it. Meanwhile warden has monsoon, and puri has their new uber 6 second heal, and who knows what mechanics the new 20 man dungeons will have.

    But by all means, if you want to go back to when 60-80% of raiding clerics were forced into healing then thats fine by me. I'll gladly go dps for a change.
    1) with around 33-35k HP and massive self heals our chloros usually always die last. We just run a defiler and 2 chloros for regulos. Sometimes another if we want to cheese it. They can heal themselves just fine. Warden heals on them are just fluff.

    2) I was quite specific inside my post saying "outside of niche" situations. I knew someone was gonna bring up orbital strike. I just do happened to use gelidra as my example instead. I don't need to include all few of them.

    3) we have three chloros that can solo heal another niche situation of final boss TDQ. I know different healers in different raids have different strengths do some people prefer different setups. Our chloros are just so strong we are now ditching our niche cleric healers. They are amazing cleric healers, it's just so much a loss to bring them over a chloro though in nearly every sense.

    4) I know a lot of chlerics are excited to dps now but a lot of mages are opposite in that they usually have to go heals now. Or sometimes necro so we can ditch the defiler too.
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  6. #6
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    Well my guild is to the point like yours where we can just aoe heal fights and not use a MT healer....so basicly your guild has out geared the content, will it be like that when the new 20 man raids hit probably not but only time will tell.

    Also a lot of guilds aren't running 3 chloros, most still use cleric healers, It is just the way your guild may do things and personal preference of your raid leader or whoever.
    Last edited by Ghost63b; 08-22-2013 at 10:03 AM.

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    Plane Walker Extrasens0ry's Avatar
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    I had no idea every single guild that has ever raided uses the same healing setup as each other .

    Truth be told, people play specs differently to others; and some even out perform others, be it DPS or healing or whatever. Some guilds may run two wardens strictly for AoE healing and one chloro to tank heal. Some run a Puri to tank heal and one chloro and warden to raid heal. Some may even run a Sentinel to tank heal and a chloro/warden to raid heal - each healing setup is different. Your guild decides to run 3 chloros and zero Cleric healers (excluding the Defiler)? That doesn't mean Cleric healing is insufficient.

    Personally I welcome the Puri changes with open arms, because instead of a mindless "I'm-going-to-shield-everyone" spec, it's turned into a nice tank healer and spot healer. Your raid group runs 3 chloros because they think it's better or whatever - does not mean Cleric is horrible in comparison to other guilds. A lot of people adore the new Puri and the changes brought forth.

    tl;dr:
    our chloros
    We just run a defiler and 2 chloros for regulos
    Sometimes another if we want to cheese it
    we have three chloros
    Our chloros are just so strong we are now ditching our niche cleric healers
    Just because your guild has a setup of 3 chloros and one defiler does not mean Clerics are useless. Your guild just run things differently.

    I know different healers in different raids have different strengths do some people prefer different setups.
    Right, so please stop saying that Clerics are in need of a buff then because other raids don't need it - you're implying you want cleric buffs so your guild can use them for healing again. ^_____^


  8. #8
    RIFT Guide Writer TheGrinnz's Avatar
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    we ditched a chloro for the puri for the most part, which meant that we needed one less healer for each fight. in other cases a chloro was switched to raid heals

    Of course we have like 4 mages and 4367487 clerics
    Last edited by TheGrinnz; 08-22-2013 at 10:34 AM.

  9. #9
    Ascendant Xenoheart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Extrasens0ry View Post
    I had no idea every single guild that has ever raided uses the same healing setup as each other .

    Personally I welcome the Puri changes with open arms, because instead of a mindless "I'm-going-to-shield-everyone" spec, it's turned into a nice tank healer and spot healer. Your raid group runs 3 chloros because they think it's better or whatever - does not mean Cleric is horrible in comparison to other guilds. A lot of people adore the new Puri and the changes brought forth.

    tl;dr:

    Just because your guild has a setup of 3 chloros and one defiler does not mean Clerics are useless. Your guild just run things differently.



    Right, so please stop saying that Clerics are in need of a buff then because other raids don't need it - you're implying you want cleric buffs so your guild can use them for healing again. ^_____^
    1) I'm so glad you quoted the part where I said different raids have different strengths and ours is chloro healers. I'm so glad you cought that because I typed it specifically to imply that I wasn't wanting to generalize all clerics in every raid, that this pertains specifically to my raid. I hope this dispells your previous thoughts such that so you can get a different opinion about my post. I was meaning specifically our guild.

    2) I hated the cleric shield bot. I'm so glad that is gone. Mindless one button sheilding is dumb!! I do not want it back.

    3) Ya we drastically over gear the content with the whole raid being in GA everyweek now and one shotting all R1 content and having to runebreak even relics.

    4) My honest hope is that R2 20 man raids will have so much tank damage that even our awesome chloros will want a puri again since they can't stack synth. We really leave it up to them. If they dont need more healers, then we dont run them, simple as that. The problem is when we started R1 raids...we still only had chloro tank healers and a defiler with nothing to back them up. We never needed it. (we did run a warden and/or a raid chloro though cause the raid needed it still, but for the most part have been subtracting raid healers).

    Yes I repeat, this is all personal experience. Hence personal opinion everywhere in my posts hence my raid is different and more. I am more interested in hearing how other raids are using the new puri, and if they have any concerns with upcoming R2 20 man raids and how they plan to handle them. I in no way want to generalize cleric performance, I can only speak to what I have experienced.

    The only things I would like to have on my cleric:
    1) Is a little more HP on our cleric heal specs
    2) And a little more DPS.

    Ya dps shouldn't matter much but with wild growth and the fact our 61 chloros are pulling atleast 5k single target...ya That adds up over a long fight. I just wish my cleric healer could do that without a loss of GCD opportunities to cleric healing like I can on my mage.
    Last edited by Xenoheart; 08-22-2013 at 10:48 AM.
    Xenohart
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  10. #10
    RIFT Guide Writer TheGrinnz's Avatar
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    Eruption DPS is actually much higher now since you commonly use wards instead of spamming symbols on other people. It doesn't make up for Wild Growth but then what does?

  11. #11
    Soulwalker
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    Could you do 20 man content w/o a chloro? Sure you can do it. But you lose out out on a TON of dps.
    Could you do it w/o a cleric? Sure could. No loss really.
    Crucia's Orbital is nice to have a warden for sure. TDQ...ran one where a Chloro solo healed the entire thing.
    It's not so much a cleric sucks. In fact, they could easily heal all mechanics. The problem lies in the fact that chloro's triple the dps and bring raid buffs. Clerics don't bring any of that. Sure you could argue they decrease some dmg on some people some of the time. hehe But it boils down to more dps!
    Want to solve the problem? It's easy, lower dps on Chloro's and give WG to Archon. Then you have no problem bringing in any healer to MT heal or raid heal. That puts all healers on a lvl playing field. Raid setups are always gonna do what is easier for the raid to take down bosses as smoothly and quickly as possible.

  12. #12
    Plane Walker Extrasens0ry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xenoheart View Post
    1) I'm so glad you quoted the part where I said different raids have different strengths and ours is chloro healers. I'm so glad you cought that because I typed it specifically to imply that I wasn't wanting to generalize all clerics in every raid, that this pertains specifically to my raid. I hope this dispells your previous thoughts such that so you can get a different opinion about my post. I was meaning specifically our guild.
    This does not clear anything up. I can't even tell if you're being sarcastic or not

    Yes I repeat, this is all personal experience. Hence personal opinion everywhere in my posts hence my raid is different and more. I am more interested in hearing how other raids are using the new puri, and if they have any concerns with upcoming R2 20 man raids and how they plan to handle them. I in no way want to generalize cleric performance, I can only speak to what I have experienced.
    This does, however. So i'll stick to what you asked in the above quote.

    In my most recent raid (FT/EE) our new puri was doing excellent. They spot healed mechanics such as Arc Weld on HM Zaviel well, and they tank healed very well also - normally I would synth a tank on X fight but I was mostly LGV for both raids (I would only ever synth a tank every so often, such as healing the tank when the turret spawned on P1 Crucia). When there was tank healing, and I was in LGV, the Puri could cover it pretty easily. I would say that Puri tank healing is on par with Chloro tank healing - yes, Chloro brings WG and LE, but a chloro can do both those in LGV regardless - but like most other guild we out-gear the place and really don't need additional raid damage.
    Our Puri did swap between 54/22 and 61 a few times, however, for Covenant on a specific boss encounter. On fights like Regulos the lack of shields was very very blatant, but people still lived through it.
    Flames of Life doesn't make up for a Wild Growth i'll admit, but when you consider the fact it heals everyone for 300% of the caster's HP i'd say it's worth the trade.
    Tomorrow we head into GA for the first time since the Puri changes so i'm eager to see how well it performs when spot healing for Ultane and Salvarola - i'm expecting to be very lazy because the Puri probably won't need my help at all

    Also, sorry for sounding hostile in my first post, I guess I took your post in a different context.


  13. #13
    Plane Touched Takatoraa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xenoheart View Post
    2) I was quite specific inside my post saying "outside of niche" situations. I knew someone was gonna bring up orbital strike. I just do happened to use gelidra as my example instead. I don't need to include all few of them.
    I know there's a larger argument you're making here, but I'm just going to address this point. Niche situations are in the eye of the beholder. The first thing you have to consider is that constant shields on every fight prior to this week has had an impact on how we've viewed incoming raid damage. Also, those who already out gear encounters will continue to out gear encounters and gear/experience may create some wiggle room in your healing setup.

    The new 61 Puri CD is the equivalent of a defensive wild growth. The 20% reduced damage is probably the most important part of this CD with the heals not being a bad icing on the cake. It's a solid CD for gelidra, zaviel (after conduits), crucia (orbitals/phase 6 ********), matriarch (consuming). And it's not a bad CD for having to deal with bad RNG or people being shaky on mechanics on every other current 20 man fight.

    Just because it's possible for guilds who have bosses on farm to tank with a warlord doesn't mean paladin is a worthless spec. The same argument applies here.

  14. #14
    Telaran
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    So far in GA:

    Kaliban: lol tank heal and spot shielding was well lol

    Kyzan: still like ward for cleanses

    Salvarola: lol adds tank didn't really need a cd (synth chloro + puri), spot shield mind sears

    Ultane: again lol tank heals + spot shield for focus chloro just lgv

    New puri is great and I don't fall asleep playing it.

  15. #15
    Rift Chaser
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    The only reason your raid leaders are asking for chloro tank heals instead of purifiers is because they are ignorant of the changes. Purifier has superior tank heals and spot heals compared to a lbv chloro.

    There are a lot of people still trying to play puri as a raid healer and complaining that puri sucks because its not working.
    Last edited by THEFUNKBOT; 08-22-2013 at 02:51 PM.

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