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Thread: @Kervik, plans for cross spec synergy?

  1. #1
    Telaran
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    Default @Kervik, plans for cross spec synergy?

    First and foremost I want to get this out of the way, I feel clerics are much more well balanced spec to spec than in vanilla. I also think Kervik has done an amazing job, and this is in no way, shape, or form a bash / hate / whatever thread.

    Now, if my understanding is right, you are the lead cleric developer, in addition to mage.
    So I have a question, are there any plans to increase cross spec synergy within clerics so we don't have to go deep builds for a working spec? I know that comes of as a bash statement but know there is no intended malice in the statement. There may be more statements like this further in, but let me restate I have nothing against Ker.

    It seems to me that the super majority of competitive / working specs for clerics seemingly need to spend 58-61 points in a single tree to work. I do not know if this is the case for other classes, I play cleric almost exclusively, so I wont be trying to make comparisons.

    One of my biggest grievances about clerics is they give the illusion of creativity and choice in talent trees. We have a tank spec, a pet spec, melee specs, ranged specs, (to many) healing specs. This can't do anything BUT give the impression that there are a TON of cool builds. However, this just doesn't play out. A lot of specs tend to fall short in low and medium branches. I would say the most common problems are related to these three issues.
    1. The nature of the tree requires a full focus build. I.E. Druid. It is the only tree that gives you a bonus to pet actions for spending points in it. If you intend to use druid pets, this hamstrings you in terms of being able to make use of other trees. It's the only tree the pet can benefit from. If you stopped at 41 points in a druid tree, your pet deals 60% less damage than a 61 point tree, or 80% less healing.
    2. Sudden power drop. In this example, we look at inquisitor. There isn't much reason to try and go very far into inquisitor for a secondary or tertiary spec, the first 5 points are the most valuable points in the tree as far as DPS is concerned. it's 10% spell power, 5% Crit, and 5% damage, as well as the second strongest DoT available to our spec. Even if you spend 0 points in it, having Vex alone is great, since even going 61 points into cabalist and 0 into inquisitor, Vex is still stronger than the cabalist single target DoTs, even though they get exclusive bonuses.
    3. The middle of a tree is focused on the deep end of the tree. Basically, all the middle talents in the tree are focusing on things that don't come into play unless you get deep into the tree itself.

    The end result is that we generally have to go almost all the way into a single tree by design, or it just isn't worth it to go half and half.

    Now I know cross spec synergy probably isn't a main goal right now, with purifier getting a number of changes, and cabalist possibly slated for a remake, making it so each spec is at least viable for play would be the obvious first goals. However, even if they are down the road, does the dev team have an opinion or any thoughts on this mater to share?

  2. #2
    Ascendant Eughe's Avatar
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    100% agree. Too much all or nothing, not enough synergy.

  3. #3
    Telaran Daergo's Avatar
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    It is an interesting point. I remember when 34/32 Purisent and 31/24/11 Druid/Shaman/Inq were all the hype.

    I don't inherently mind the lack of hybrid soul specializations, but it feels dishonest to be given Rift's calling/soul system and not have compelling reason to mix it up a bit beyond 61 and nigh-61 point builds.

  4. #4
    Ascendant Stay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luix View Post
    Now I know cross spec synergy probably isn't a main goal right now
    It is *supposed* to be a goal. There was a live stream a while back with "Daglar's message to the dev team: no more 61 or bust builds."

    I was excited to hear that and hope for follow-through on it. Maybe even before 3.0, which is still months and months away

    Quote Originally Posted by Luix View Post
    First and foremost I want to get this out of the way, I feel clerics are much more well balanced spec to spec than in vanilla
    This is the problem. It is possible, though not easy, to balance nine viable 61-point specs. But as soon as you make hybrid specs viable, you no longer have to balance nine possibilities. You have to balance hundreds. That's not possible; some imbalances are inevitable.

    The less tolerant we are of imbalances, the more we force the devs into making only a few cookie-cutter builds viable. Because that's the only way to ensure balance. By patting Kervik on the back for balancing at the same time you ask for more spec diversity, you are undermining your own request. The better message: we expect some imbalance and that is OK. Build diversity is worth it.
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  5. #5
    Rift Master Krumelur's Avatar
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    I personally really liked the thing with Primary Bolts he did. Perhaps we could get Primary Heals and Attacks. Medium Inquisitor could affect Primaries in some way.

    Life and Death Concord/Unified Theory
    "Your Primary abilities either reduces the cast time and gcd of the next ability by x, or increases the damage/healing by y if it's already an inherently instant ability. Stacks 5 times." etcetera

    Stuff like that. Gives you the mechanics of Inq while increasing hybridization in interesting ways and also, with tuning, still keeping 61p Inq the way it is.

    My example is probably bad, but it's just that - an example. :P
    Last edited by Krumelur; 08-16-2013 at 10:02 PM.

  6. #6
    Rift Master Krumelur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krumelur View Post
    I personally really liked the thing with Primary Bolts he did.
    For mages**

  7. #7
    Plane Touched
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    I would even settle for a 61 point build that has synergy with other callings. As it is, with a very few exceptions, the only reason you use the spare 15 points is for stat or heal/damage boosts. This needs to change!

  8. #8
    General of Telara Kriptini's Avatar
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    The first step is to remove the Gift system and just give players those bonuses naturally through levels, sort of like pre-1.11. The second step is to take away all of the Cleric permanent buffs that lower the GCD, and re-balance the damage on their skills. (Sign of Asias is okay since it's temporary.)

    I'm not saying that I want Inqusicar or Senticar back (although I do), but I really feel like Gifts s ruined cross-role hybrids, whereas Furious Assault/Spiritual Scrutiny ruins cross-DPS hybrids.

  9. #9
    Plane Touched Arasaadi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kriptini View Post
    The second step is to take away all of the Cleric permanent buffs that lower the GCD, and re-balance the damage on their skills.
    First step should be to do away with the 1.5 GCD and have everyone on a 1 sec GCD and thus we don't need those skills to begin with!

  10. #10
    Soulwalker
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    Id really love some Synergy between Justicar and Shaman to be able to create a Melee Hybrid that has some Survivability.

  11. #11
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krumelur View Post
    I personally really liked the thing with Primary Bolts he did. Perhaps we could get Primary Heals and Attacks. Medium Inquisitor could affect Primaries in some way.

    Life and Death Concord/Unified Theory
    "Your Primary abilities either reduces the cast time and gcd of the next ability by x, or increases the damage/healing by y if it's already an inherently instant ability. Stacks 5 times." etcetera

    Stuff like that. Gives you the mechanics of Inq while increasing hybridization in interesting ways and also, with tuning, still keeping 61p Inq the way it is.

    My example is probably bad, but it's just that - an example. :P
    That actually is a very good idea. Every spec has an ability that can be a primary attack or healing. It would be a lot of work, but would likely go a long way. I'm actually quite interested in the theory you proposed, as that could lend itself, in my opinion, to some interesting support builds, or cross roll specs.

  12. #12
    Ascendant Stay's Avatar
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    Another idea: "Primary Ally" or so. It's the group member who has the buff of your spec. Shared Excess, Wrathful Exuberance, Eruption, Righteous Mandate, the highest Defiler link you have unlocked.

    Then there can be talents that cause an effect on your primary ally when you DPS, or when you heal other people.
    I'm So Meta Even This Acronym

  13. #13
    Rift Chaser
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    I'm really not a fan of hybrid specs, but kervick already has done good things for synergy between souls. Dark water and Inquisitor being the best example of that.

  14. #14
    Telaran Groddeolm's Avatar
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    Yes, you are so right. I really miss speccs like all -icars, jolt and bolt, druid/cabba (44/22 works fine but not the same than before SL)

  15. #15
    Ascendant BishopX's Avatar
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    remember all the trouble that came around when you allowed too much cross spec synergy?
    do you really want to be back in the days of 5 shamicars in a PvE raid? and shamicar 1 mill damage taken 1 mil damage done and 1 mil healing in a port scion days again?
    How much do you HATE BISHOPX?
    Warrior video (july)
    Newest shaman PvP video
    Enjoy the GREATEST HITS

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