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Thread: Justicar Build Question: 61/6 Shaman/9 Defiler

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    Rift Disciple Oort's Avatar
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    Default Justicar Build Question: 61/6 Shaman/9 Defiler

    I've been told this build deviates from the cookie-cutter norm of Inq for 3rd soul.

    I chose it for the +10% Wisdom, and the +8.5% Healing and Absorb, netting a 1% better mitigation from the extra wisdom than AoT from Inquisitor. Rage Blight and Blighted Greed (for tank swap fights) doesn't hurt, but extra DPS isn't really the goal here, just a happy side-effect.

    It loses some health (3% from AoT or about 700 for me) but gains extra healing, absorb, block and parry.

    Feedback? Is 9 Def really worse than 9 Inq?

    Thanks.

  2. #2
    Plane Touched
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    Im not a full time tank, but I do know that, when it comes to raids, enduranc, armor, and resistance is king. Im not at my computer at the moment, but doesnt AoT give 3% endurance AND armor? While your defiler spec would have slightly more avoidance, inquisitor will be completely superior. Not to mention adding a significant amount of threat generation over your defiler spec.

    I have no concrete evidence, just my $.02

  3. #3
    RIFT Guide Writer Redcruxs's Avatar
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    honestly, you'll probably never know the difference in an actual fight.

    but if we're talking theoretical here, going with inquisitor gives you superior EHP without sacrificing much average mitigation.

    stacking as much HP as possible is usually what most people will tell you though because sometimes you just get hit for a rediculous amount of damage no matter what your mitigation is. Without that 700 HP you could be down when another tank would live (but that would be extreme RNG)

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    Ascendant Stay's Avatar
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    The real answer here is that it hardly matters - 61/6 is the tank build, and the spare 9 points can go practically anywhere with very little difference.

    That said, I use 9 defiler also. If you are a main spec tank for a progression raid, you probably should use the max EHP build, period. But I'm not - I tank TODQ, experts, world content, maybe a farm boss here and there. Pretty often I use my tank spec + healing gear to do group daily/weekly quests and zone events. For those purposes, a solid boost to DPS + healing is surely worth a minor hit to EHP.
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    Rift Disciple Oort's Avatar
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    Thanks for the feedback.

    I've never been fond of the notion that Endurance stacking beats all. But my fondness has no bearing on statistical reality.

    I use Impenetrable (or whatever the End/Block) augments, not Rugged. I'll sacrifice 680 health from AoT to gain 1% mitigation (0.38% DR lost from the AoT armor buff vs. the extra block and parry of roughly 1.38%).

    I do suspect that if that 680 health matters that much, things have already gone south.

    But I suspect I'll need to grind 200k CQ and keep the Inq spec using up a role slot, for when the health really matters.

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    RIFT Guide Writer TheGrinnz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oort View Post
    Thanks for the feedback.

    I've never been fond of the notion that Endurance stacking beats all. But my fondness has no bearing on statistical reality.

    I use Impenetrable (or whatever the End/Block) augments, not Rugged. I'll sacrifice 680 health from AoT to gain 1% mitigation (0.38% DR lost from the AoT armor buff vs. the extra block and parry of roughly 1.38%).

    I do suspect that if that 680 health matters that much, things have already gone south.

    But I suspect I'll need to grind 200k CQ and keep the Inq spec using up a role slot, for when the health really matters.
    As long as you never tank raids that is fine.

    For tanking raids you should not have anything other than the maximum endurance possible.

    Goloch is the one T1 encounter I've found so far where block actually matters since the main tank damage is blockable.
    Last edited by TheGrinnz; 08-15-2013 at 09:05 AM.

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    Rift Disciple Oort's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoUseForAName View Post
    Im not a full time tank, but I do know that, when it comes to raids, enduranc, armor, and resistance is king. Im not at my computer at the moment, but doesnt AoT give 3% endurance AND armor? While your defiler spec would have slightly more avoidance, inquisitor will be completely superior. Not to mention adding a significant amount of threat generation over your defiler spec.

    I have no concrete evidence, just my $.02
    The avoidance gained from +10% wisdom is more than the avoidance lost to 6% armor. So that criteria of complete superiority fails.

    It really boils down to whether 3% (of unimproved health, not total) extra endurance is worth the loss of mitigation, extra healing, and extra absorb.

    As for threat generation, that's not really a big problem for Justicar, in my experience (except vs. VK/RV in melee range).

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    RIFT Guide Writer usman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oort View Post
    The avoidance gained from +10% wisdom is more than the avoidance lost to 6% armor. So that criteria of complete superiority fails.

    It really boils down to whether 3% (of unimproved health, not total) extra endurance is worth the loss of mitigation, extra healing, and extra absorb.

    As for threat generation, that's not really a big problem for Justicar, in my experience (except vs. VK/RV in melee range).
    Since almost all SL raid boss nukes are not blockable, avoidance stats are very much second class to maxing out mitigation and HP's, ie - armor, resistance and endurance.

    Avoidance stats are lovely for trash pulls but at this stage of the game they are fluff stats.

    Also, although you would think that rage blight and the points in the healing grift would make a big difference to threat they don't exceed the effect of the 10% SP very much in Inq. The two alternative specs that I would consider for specific purposes would be a purge version or a cleanse version.
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  9. #9
    RIFT Guide Writer TheGrinnz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oort View Post
    The avoidance gained from +10% wisdom is more than the avoidance lost to 6% armor. So that criteria of complete superiority fails.

    It really boils down to whether 3% (of unimproved health, not total) extra endurance is worth the loss of mitigation, extra healing, and extra absorb.

    As for threat generation, that's not really a big problem for Justicar, in my experience (except vs. VK/RV in melee range).
    Armor is not avoidance, it is mitigation. It directly reduces damage you take and is useful against all physical damage. Block and avoidance on the other hand are both RNG and don't apply to most raid boss attacks other than their autoattack (if they even have one).

    Avoidance and block are great for trash packs which both are mostly blockable/avoidance, and attack you enough times that the RNG is smoothed out. It's not that great when the only attack you can block is a 40k hit every few seconds.
    Last edited by TheGrinnz; 08-15-2013 at 09:50 AM.

  10. #10
    Ascendant Boase's Avatar
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    As Ambi said most SL raid boss nukes are not blockable so EHP and armor is key. Once your gear is super high it doesn't really matter much. I like to run 12 inq for shroud of agony (dps increase!) and purge.
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  11. #11
    Rift Disciple Oort's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGrinnz View Post
    Armor is not avoidance, it is mitigation. It directly reduces damage you take and is useful against all physical damage. Block and avoidance on the other hand are both RNG and don't apply to most raid boss attacks other than their autoattack (if they even have one).
    And there lies the detail I completely didn't have: Block and avoidance don't apply to most raid boss attacks. I'll drink the kool-aid and switch to Inq.

    Though I'll probably be slow about re-crafting my craftables with Rugged augments.

    Bye-bye block cap. It was nice seeing you, for a while.

  12. #12
    Ascendant Primalthirst's Avatar
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    It's a flaw in the current boss design methodology. They design big hits to be threatening to the tank and healers, but they don't want you to be able to nullfy those attacks by avoiding, so they make next tiers hits even bigger because everyone is stacking EHP and the cycle continues.

    For me personally, I would like to see varying boss attack patterns between encounters that favor different specs or gearing tactics a little more. Unfortunately that's not so easy to do since gear is rather static and it's impossible to get a meaningful amount of Dodge or Parry to allow for a different gearing style.
    Nope.

  13. #13
    Rift Disciple Oort's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primalthirst View Post
    and it's impossible to get a meaningful amount of Dodge or Parry to allow for a different gearing style.
    If I recall the math I did correctly, and if I did it correctly, I think part of that is poor itemization.

    One point of Block grants 3x percentage Block, than a point of Dodge or Parry, but at 34% DR on block, that becomes a wash, leaving +Block on par with +Parry and +Dodge.

    Alas, gear comes with twice the +Block than either +Parry or +Dodge, so it's less effective stacking either of the latter (above and beyond the mechanics ignoring them).

  14. #14
    Ascendant Hotter's Avatar
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    I went five into defiler as well. It's all a wash for me anyhow. I kept the inq flavor and have a couple of melee wtf-am-i-doing dps specs.

  15. #15
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    It seems like several people are not looking at mitigation properly in this thread.

    When you lose 5% mitigation, it is not simply 5% more damage taken. The way mitigation works every percent means more than the last percent.


    just for instance, say you get hit for 10,000
    player A has 50% mitigation and takes 5000
    player B has 55% mitigation and takes 4500


    you see a 5% difference, but 4500 is actually 90% of 5000.

    this means that player B is actually taking 10% less damage than player A.

    then combine that with player B having a couple thousand more health because he min/maxxed, and all of a sudden the difference is even larger in how much abuse they can take.


    sure if you are doing farm content, whatever. I am just saying the people who say they didnt take 6 shaman or whatnot else... it hurts more than the small percentages you initially see on the tooltips.
    Last edited by ForumFritz; 08-20-2013 at 06:52 AM.

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