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Thread: I understand that mages are thew best healers. What is viable for a cleric?

  1. #1
    Soulwalker
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    Default I understand that mages are thew best healers. What is viable for a cleric?

    When I started the game last week I started a mage and a cleric. Mage for support, and cleric for healing. Since then I have come to understand that mages are the better healers. What then is viable for a cleric.

    Now, I get that in any individual group I could provide healing in lieu of a chloro mage, but what is the reality of cleric healing overall, especially end-game? It sounds like they provide more of a backup healing role. Are certain builds more widely accepted than others?

    I'm just trying to get a feel for the clerics role in things. If all builds are equally viable, that's great, but my experience in other games has shown that that is not usually the case.

    Any info will be appreciated.

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    Ascendant Primalthirst's Avatar
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    Chloromancers are better at certain things than various Cleric specs, the reverse is just as true. Each has their own strengths and weaknesses.
    Nope.

  3. #3
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primalthirst View Post
    Chloromancers are better at certain things than various Cleric specs, the reverse is just as true. Each has their own strengths and weaknesses.
    Chloromancer > Warden.

    Chloromancer > Sentinal.

    Purifier, unique roll that is about to get nerfed.

    Necromancer > Defiler.
    Last edited by Jackslash; 08-08-2013 at 07:04 AM.

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    Ascendant Primalthirst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackslash View Post
    Chloromancer > Warden.

    Entirely situational, Chloromancer cannot compete with Warden burst healing, Warden cannot compete with Chloromancer sustained healing. They are different niches.

    Chloromancer > Sentinal.

    Generally, yes although Sentinel has the superior cooldowns, which while not enough to earn a spot in raids are very potent in other content

    Purifier, unique roll that is about to get nerfed.

    If by nerfed you mean altered to no longer be drastically overpowered, then yes.

    Necromancer > Defiler.

    Entirely situational, if you use a Necromancer on Kyzan for instance then you need 2 healers, instead of just a Chloro and a Defiler which makes using a Necromancer a large DPS loss.
    You've obviously got a chip on your shoulder, but this really isn't the place for that since the OP is looking for information, not arguments.

    @OP
    Generic end-game healing composition for most fights is something along the lines of:
    1-2x Chloromancer - Usually a Tank Healer or Tank Healer + AoE Healer
    1x Warden - AoE Healer
    1x Purifier - AoE Healer with Tank CDs
    1x Defiler - Generally full DPS, passively applying Links
    Last edited by Primalthirst; 08-08-2013 at 07:13 AM.
    Nope.

  5. #5
    Champion TadaceAce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primalthirst View Post
    You've obviously got a chip on your shoulder, but this really isn't the place for that since the OP is looking for information, not arguments.

    @OP
    Generic end-game healing composition for most fights is something along the lines of:
    1-2x Chloromancer - Usually a Tank Healer or Tank Healer + AoE Healer
    1x Warden - AoE Healer
    1x Purifier - AoE Healer with Tank CDs
    1x Defiler - Generally full DPS, passively applying Links
    Soon to be:

    1-3 Chloro
    Warden (optional, + or minus a chloro)
    1x Necro.

    Hey we get 1 optional spot as a healer in raids! Our dps is fine and our tanking is fine but the one thing you would expect we fall behind.

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    Ascendant Soul sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primalthirst View Post
    You've obviously got a chip on your shoulder, but this really isn't the place for that since the OP is looking for information, not arguments.

    @OP
    Generic end-game healing composition for most fights is something along the lines of:
    1-2x Chloromancer - Usually a Tank Healer or Tank Healer + AoE Healer
    1x Warden - AoE Healer
    1x Purifier - AoE Healer with Tank CDs
    1x Defiler - Generally full DPS, passively applying Links
    I disagree with your 1x Warden. Warden is practically only used on Crucia. And even that is only because of a couple of spells in the fight (Orbital Strike)
    Valery@Zaviel - Mage | Valzz - Cleric | Soulsky - Rogue | Introvert - Warrior
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    Ascendant Primalthirst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soul sky View Post
    I disagree with your 1x Warden. Warden is practically only used on Crucia. And even that is only because of a couple of spells in the fight (Orbital Strike)
    I didn't say minimized healing set-up, I indicated what was standard across most guilds for generic encounters.

    We probably use 2 healers for ~50% of encounters and 3 healers for the rest, wouldn't be any we use more than 3 that I can think of, but we're hardly standard.
    Nope.

  8. #8
    Ascendant Soul sky's Avatar
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    To compare Cleric to Mage healing for each of their roles to show you their worth...:

    Sentinel. It has great healing but is outmatched by the sustained healing, flexibility and non-cooldown utility of Chloromancers for tank healing. The reason you would take a Sent over a Chloro is because of their array of Cooldowns. In reality, the only cooldowns of note which a Chloro can't compete with are Healer's Convenant (40% damage reduction) and Vigiliance (prevents one shot mechanics).

    Given that the Purifiers will have Covenant, and a Defiler is usually present with Unstable Transformation, Sentinels are never used in current content since their cool downs are not needed and flexibility/healing outmatched by Chloro

    Warden
    It has great burst healing but that's about it. A common saying is that ''Wardens are taken to heal the Chloromancers''. What this means is - if more raid healing is required, a Chloro would be preferred, but given that Chloros cannot effectively cross-heal, a Warden is added instead. Note that this only remained true on progression where much AoE healing was needed. Now, a Chloro or two will do fine on mostly every fight.

    Warden does have a small niche however when a large amount of burst healing is needed. For example: Crucia.

    Purifier
    Shields, damage mitigation, decent cooldowns. All around awesome. It will likely remain awesome and still be taken every fight with the upcoming changes

    Defiler
    Provides damage reduction links, boosts the health of those with links, provides burst healing, a nice cooldown and sub par DPS. If the only reason you're taking a Defiler is for the damage reduction links, then Necromancer takes the spot. If the healing/ max health increase/ cooldown is necessary, Defiler is used.

    Your conclusion that Clerics are most support-healy in raids isn't far from the truth. They're taken for niche purposes in regards to raw healing for the raid (always preferred to take 1-2x tank healing chloro and 1-2x raid healing chloro. Cleric supports these with shielding, links, cooldowns or burst healing when Chloromancer needs supplementing.

    Note that the above is only true due to the current raids. It is entirely possible that Sentinels/Wardens will be preferred over Chloro tank and raid healers in future content, albeit unlikely.

    In regards to dungeons and other group content however, either works just as good.
    Valery@Zaviel - Mage | Valzz - Cleric | Soulsky - Rogue | Introvert - Warrior
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    Ascendant Soul sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primalthirst View Post
    I didn't say minimized healing set-up, I indicated what was standard across most guilds for generic encounters.

    We probably use 2 healers for ~50% of encounters and 3 healers for the rest, wouldn't be any we use more than 3 that I can think of, but we're hardly standard.
    I wasn't referring to a minimized setup - you said generic. Warden is not apart of generic healing setups. At least, I hope not. Maybe lots of nooby guilds do use it, but based on efficiency, they shouldn't.

    That being said, regardless of all else - Sentinel and Warden CAN be deemed just as capable of Chloromancers. They are by no means support - it's just that currently, they are not preferred (generally)
    Valery@Zaviel - Mage | Valzz - Cleric | Soulsky - Rogue | Introvert - Warrior
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  10. #10
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primalthirst View Post
    You've obviously got a chip on your shoulder, but this really isn't the place for that since the OP is looking for information, not arguments.

    @OP
    Generic end-game healing composition for most fights is something along the lines of:
    1-2x Chloromancer - Usually a Tank Healer or Tank Healer + AoE Healer
    1x Warden - AoE Healer
    1x Purifier - AoE Healer with Tank CDs
    1x Defiler - Generally full DPS, passively applying Links
    I am just trying to save the guy some heartache. In all seriousness if you want to heal, roll up a mage, not a cleric.

  11. #11
    Ascendant Primalthirst's Avatar
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    Basically what happens every content cycle is that during farm when everyone is overgeared raids muscle through mechanics pretty much just using Chloromancers. All the Clerics get upset for a while and start chanting doom and gloom about how they'll never get a raid spot again.

    Then new content arrives.

    Suddenly everyone isn't hugely overgeared and can't ignore mechanics by using Chloros to pump out raw HPS. They actually need cooldowns and focused healing, which is where the Clerics come in.

    Right now we're in the farm phase so all the Clerics are filling the forums with the same complaints they had at the end of every previous tier of content.
    Nope.

  12. #12
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primalthirst View Post
    Basically what happens every content cycle is that during farm when everyone is overgeared raids muscle through mechanics pretty much just using Chloromancers. All the Clerics get upset for a while and start chanting doom and gloom about how they'll never get a raid spot again.

    Then new content arrives.

    Suddenly everyone isn't hugely overgeared and can't ignore mechanics by using Chloros to pump out raw HPS. They actually need cooldowns and focused healing, which is where the Clerics come in.

    Right now we're in the farm phase so all the Clerics are filling the forums with the same complaints they had at the end of every previous tier of content.
    I disagree.

    Clerics suffer because they have 4 healing souls. Basically Mages can do in 1 soul (+necro for the link) what it takes 4 cleric souls to do.

    It is a massive advantage to be able to do all the healing functions in 1 soul.

    And I am guessing it will probably only get worse. As Warriors and Rogues will only have 1 healing soul. They will be more flexible healers than Clerics by default.

    What they need to do is to allow the changing of souls in combat. That would erase the Mages huge 1 soul advantage.

  13. #13
    Rift Chaser Sikph's Avatar
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    I just have to chip in and knock the people on the head for going down the "Necro > Defiler" route. Have you even tried GA or next tier progression?

    Yes, it's possible if you have an abundance of Mages in your guild. However, the fact is that Defiler can link 4 targets instead of 1, it has the best tank CD in the game and it can also pump out some reasonable DPS while spot healing. All on one character. It just doesn't compare. I've been up to around 18k DPS and a few thousand HPS on Salvarola. You'd need a decent Necro to get that DPS, and they have nowhere near the healing potential.

    That said... I'd still rather have Necromancers take my place because I'd rather pure DPS.

    Just stop jumping on the hate bandwagon. If you play your souls well, there will always be room for you in raid composition. Same goes for all the other Cleric heal souls. It's very player and guild dependant, not soul dependant.

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    Ascendant Xenoheart's Avatar
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    Honest advice:

    Wait two weeks. Kervik is working really hard on cleric healing specs at the moment. After that, all our opinions about Mage>Cleric heals might change...maybe.
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    Rift Disciple
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soul sky View Post
    Purifier
    Shields, damage mitigation, decent cooldowns. All around awesome. It will likely remain awesome and still be taken every fight with the upcoming changes
    Wha... what? Have you seen the changes?

    It will never be used again. It's literally that bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Primalthirst View Post
    Basically what happens every content cycle is that during farm when everyone is overgeared raids muscle through mechanics pretty much just using Chloromancers. All the Clerics get upset for a while and start chanting doom and gloom about how they'll never get a raid spot again.

    Then new content arrives.

    Suddenly everyone isn't hugely overgeared and can't ignore mechanics by using Chloros to pump out raw HPS. They actually need cooldowns and focused healing, which is where the Clerics come in.

    Right now we're in the farm phase so all the Clerics are filling the forums with the same complaints they had at the end of every previous tier of content.
    That's actually backwards. Clerics are used more during farm because it's better to overheal and get a kill every time than to underheal and go for a WTF-LOL parse but have any probability of wiping at all.

    During progression, Clerics are used only when absolutely required, outside of defiler, and possibly the current Puri, which won't be around for the next tier.

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