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Thread: Justicar Synergy Improvements

  1. #1
    Plane Touched
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    Default Justicar Synergy Improvements

    Can we haz moar Cleric <3?

    Namely in the department of how Salvation handles healing and a few other abilities.

    NOTE: that these are not necessarily tanking improvements as much as Hybrid synergy ones.

    If salvation would do 2x the healing on all ST life damage, not just Justicar abilities, it would help somewhat with Survivability for leveling and PvP.

    Strike of Retribution would be nice if it procced of blocking or dealing a crit and being ogcd.

    A return of some form of Mein of Aggression at 36 points that increases Damage and Healing done by life based abilities by 25%.

    Also the pace of combat with Justicar is rather slow. Could be the 1.5sec gcd or the lack of ogcd abilities. Either way can anything be done to address this. Literally it's like BoRad, wait, SoJ, wait, SoJ, wait, SoJ, wait, SoJ, wait, HoD, wait....

    Maybe put Mein of Aggression deeper in the root, and attach a reduction in gcd for damaging life abilities but reduce the healing from salvation by 10%.

    I don't know just spit balling here.

  2. #2
    General of Telara Kriptini's Avatar
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    Can we first have Salvation do some actual healing in 61 Justicar builds? "200 HPS" doesn't exactly justify the claim: "Justicar passively heals his allies."

    I mean yeah, it's technically healing, but in a group of 5, that's 40 HPS per person. Whoop-de-doo.

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    RIFT Guide Writer bombasy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kriptini View Post
    Can we first have Salvation do some actual healing in 61 Justicar builds? "200 HPS" doesn't exactly justify the claim: "Justicar passively heals his allies."

    I mean yeah, it's technically healing, but in a group of 5, that's 40 HPS per person. Whoop-de-doo.
    Uhh. How are you healing this little with Justicar? Should be at least 2k HPS (hint: overheals).
    Last edited by bombasy; 08-01-2013 at 03:34 PM.
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    General of Telara Kriptini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bombasy View Post
    Uhh. How are you healing this little with Justicar?
    That's what my Justicar heals in Expert gear in an Expert dungeon, no synergy crystal. I'm sure that if you took 5 T2 raid-geared people into an expert, the Justicar healing would be equally pitiful relative to people's health pools.
    Last edited by Kriptini; 08-01-2013 at 03:32 PM.

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    RIFT Guide Writer bombasy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kriptini View Post
    That's what my Justicar heals in Expert gear in an Expert dungeon, no synergy crystal. I'm sure that if you took 5 T2 raid-geared people into an expert, the Justicar healing would be equally pitiful relative to people's health pools.
    400 health to 6 targets every 1.5 seconds = 1600 HPS.
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  6. #6
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    A possible thing could be for each conviction the cleric has all damage/healing is increased by 2%(example number) and non life & non justicar abilities consume convictions

    this leads to buffing convictions buffing other damage/healing via talents etc

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    Rift Chaser Sikph's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kriptini View Post
    Can we first have Salvation do some actual healing in 61 Justicar builds? "200 HPS" doesn't exactly justify the claim: "Justicar passively heals his allies."

    I mean yeah, it's technically healing, but in a group of 5, that's 40 HPS per person. Whoop-de-doo.
    Having played with all Salvation builds extensively I can guarantee you that you can heal vastly more than 200 HPS. The highest I've chucked out is about 1100hps per person. Since you can have up to 6 additional targets hit by this, that's a potential of 7700 HPS. Our guilds geared cleric tanks in raids easily manage 2k effective HPS, often pushing higher during add phases.

    It's not at the same level as actual healers, which regularly go over 10k HPS (including overheals), but it's not meant to be either. If our Salvation was too powerful, like it was when it scaled off damage done, what'd be the point in having healers?

    What I would like to see is have Mien of Leadership not nerf non-justicar damage by so much, if at all. This would open up the possibilities of hybrid specs for more DPS. As it is right now, using anything but Justicar based attacks usually works out as a DPS loss. The exception being our big hitters such as Massive Blow and Combined Effort, which are a very slight DPS gain, but you heal less with Salvation and don't gain convictions.

    I understand the caution that Trion has taken to avoid Senticar making a strong return, but I still feel like we should have more options. There really is only one viable cleric tanking spec using Sham and Inq for the buffs. You can build a Justi/Druid hybrid, but you lose so much effective HP that the minimal gains are just not worth it.

    As it stands, cleric tanking works, and it works really well. It's just incredibly boring. There is little to no damage rotation, and no options for builds. Once our other souls are in a good place, I really hope Kervik considers spicing up Justicar a little. It needs some life breathed into it.
    Last edited by Sikph; 08-01-2013 at 05:18 PM.

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    RIFT Guide Writer TheGrinnz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kriptini View Post
    Can we first have Salvation do some actual healing in 61 Justicar builds? "200 HPS" doesn't exactly justify the claim: "Justicar passively heals his allies."

    I mean yeah, it's technically healing, but in a group of 5, that's 40 HPS per person. Whoop-de-doo.
    I can't remember the last time I was under 2000 HPS but of course that's in a 20 man raid (only because people take more damage there, it doesn't heal all 20 people).

    The justicar 4 piece and maximizing the use of Total Assurance on Doctrine of Authority when you don't need it for mitigation really helps. You could use it on DoL too but that's kind of a waste.
    Last edited by TheGrinnz; 08-02-2013 at 10:15 AM.

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    Shield of Telara aabuster1's Avatar
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    I would like to see more abilities/passives/etc in the cleric DPS souls that would give the justicar more than one or two builds to choose from.

  10. #10
    Ascendant Eughe's Avatar
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    I would like if thy added a .5 healing to the gifts.

  11. #11
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    Ok so at least I'm not the only one who was hoping for a little more from Justicar.

    So how about the following: (summarizing points)

    Strike of Retribution - Moved to 36 points in the Root, OGCD attack, procs from blocking or dealing a critical hit.

    (NEW) Dutiful Purpose - Allows the Cleric to have 2 Active Miens (36 point tree)

    Mien of Honor - Threat reduction removed. Increases Healing done with Justicar and Life based abilities by 20%

    Mien of Leadership - Increases Endurance, Armor, and Resistances by 35%. Increases threat generation by 350%. Allows the Cleric's overhealing to generate threat. Reduces damage done, healing done, and absorption granted with non-Justicar abilities by 40%. Each active conviction reduces this penalty by 5%

    (NEW) Mien of Aggression - Increases Damage done using Justicar and Life based abilities by 25%, Reduces healing done by 25%. Reduces the global cooldown by .5 when using Justicar or Life based abilities. (48 Point root)

    Light of Creation - Strike of Retribution added to benefit

    Unshakable Faith - Also increases critical damage and healing by 3/6%

    Doctrine of Bliss - Now targetable, still consumes conviction. Heals for 50% more if your target is under the effect of your Righteous Mandate.

    Divine Right - Also applies to the target of your Righteous Mandate.

    Righteous Mandate - Causes the Clerics salvation to heal the ally as well. Deals X-X Life damage to the allies target when damaged.

    Censure - Deals X-X life damage plus an additional Y-Y life damage over 15 secs. and reduces targets chance to hit by 5% for the duration.

    Resplendent Embrace - Can be used on the target of your Righteous Mandate.

    Just Defense - Can be used on the target of your Righteous Mandate.

    Rebuke - Pulls up to 5 enemies to the cleric. If the Cleric is under the effect of Mein of Leadership forces the enemies to attack the cleric for 3 secs.

    Interdict - Interrupts the enemy and nearby enemies, silences the target on a successful interrupt for 5s.

    Salvation - Heals for X-X. Heals Twice that amount when using single target life based abilities and a quarter when using non-Justicar area effect attacks.

    I think those changes would address a lot of the issues with Synergy and group play. As well as bring Tank damage up some with the use of dual miens active and the reduction in damage penalty with active convictions, would give the Justicar the choice of doing more damage or more healing while maintain most of the current tankiness.

  12. #12
    RIFT Guide Writer bombasy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stokesey View Post
    Strike of Retribution - Moved to 36 points in the Root, OGCD attack, procs from blocking or dealing a critical hit.
    No.

    (NEW) Dutiful Purpose - Allows the Cleric to have 2 Active Miens (36 point tree)

    Mien of Honor - Threat reduction removed. Increases Healing done with Justicar and Life based abilities by 20%

    Mien of Leadership - Increases Endurance, Armor, and Resistances by 35%. Increases threat generation by 350%. Allows the Cleric's overhealing to generate threat. Reduces damage done, healing done, and absorption granted with non-Justicar abilities by 40%. Each active conviction reduces this penalty by 5%
    No, you don't seem to understand how Justicar works and why MoH has threat reduction.

    (NEW) Mien of Aggression - Increases Damage done using Justicar and Life based abilities by 25%, Reduces healing done by 25%. Reduces the global cooldown by .5 when using Justicar or Life based abilities. (48 Point root)
    Definitely No. Healing penalty would need to be closer to 75% (if not 100%) for such a giant DPS upgrade. It seems like you want us to be VK + Pally + Reaver + Warlord at the same time.

    Light of Creation - Strike of Retribution added to benefit
    I approve of this message.

    Unshakable Faith - Also increases critical damage and healing by 3/6%
    Might as well not drop it on Unshakable Faith, get rid of Divine right and make it 3/6/9% crit and 1/2/3% crit damage. OP? Yes.

    Doctrine of Bliss - Now targetable, still consumes conviction. Heals for 50% more if your target is under the effect of your Righteous Mandate.
    No, at most make it also heal your RM target. Keep in mind ANY increase in healing fiddles with our threat.

    Divine Right - Also applies to the target of your Righteous Mandate.
    See above regarding Divine Right.

    Righteous Mandate - Causes the Clerics salvation to heal the ally as well. Deals X-X Life damage to the allies target when damaged.
    What?

    Censure - Deals X-X life damage plus an additional Y-Y life damage over 15 secs. and reduces targets chance to hit by 5% for the duration.
    No.

    Resplendent Embrace - Can be used on the target of your Righteous Mandate.
    No, this would allow for double tank cooldowns since your RM target is almost always a tank.

    Just Defense - Can be used on the target of your Righteous Mandate.
    See above, no.

    Rebuke - Pulls up to 5 enemies to the cleric. If the Cleric is under the effect of Mein of Leadership forces the enemies to attack the cleric for 3 secs.
    Agreedo.

    Interdict - Interrupts the enemy and nearby enemies, silences the target on a successful interrupt for 5s.
    Nope.

    Salvation - Heals for X-X. Heals Twice that amount when using single target life based abilities and a quarter when using non-Justicar area effect attacks.
    Nope. Salvation is balanced-ish for threat, don't fiddle too much with it, although it's SP scaling needs to be looked at (or tank SP needs to be looked at) because we're falling way behind in threat.
    Hedonism (Deepwood)

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by bombasy View Post

    Stuff, disagreeing with almost everything without looking at all the changes or providing reason as to why not.
    I guess let me put in the reasoning, not just for Bombasy, but everyone else as I realize they may seem like sweeping changes.

    Strike of Retribution:
    QoL change, as well as slight threat boost. Would address the slowness of combat.

    Dutiful Purpose:
    Having 2 Miens active means if you wanted to Tank you could run with more group heals or more damage. Either way you are producing more threat from Mien of Leaderships Threat bonus as well as the damage/healing/shielding reduction penalty by having spare convictions saved up for burst of threat with other non Justicar abilities. As you spend the convictions the penalty increases reducing said damage/healing/shielding until convictions are accumulated back.

    Hence the removal of threat reduction on Mien of Honor. If you wanted to melee support heal You would run MoA and MoH with a 5% net penalty in healing, offset by a increase in salv procs due to 1s gcd.

    As for the concerns of Threat from Salvation etc. it's threat can be adjusted down and bonus to threat on MoL increased if it is a problem.

    Mien of Aggression:
    At 48 points in the root, the 25% damage modifier and gcd reduction would offset the lack of gift bonus. The perceived "giant DPS upgrade" would be negligible considering the placement in the root. It would not make Justicar top dps but make it acceptable dps in a support healing role and bring Justicar Tanking DPS (and threat) up when used with tanking.

    In regards to it's healing penalty, it is there to keep support healing in check, not neuter healing completely.

    Unshakable Faith/Divine Right:
    While the Shielding granted from DR is negligible, adding the ability to apply it to the target of your RM may prove beneficial with the increased healing granted from MoH.

    Gutting 2 tanking abilities for straight crit bonus is counter intuitive to the nature of the Soul. Hence only improving crit damage and healing by 3/6% is needed. It's placement in the tree is enough to warrant so.

    Righteous Mandate:
    Pretty much keeps it's current form with the exception of an added dmg reflect on whoever has it, counts toward the cleric who applied it's damage and would proc an extra salvation when it goes off.

    Doctrine of Bliss:
    Targetable healing makes it more versatile and adds synergy within the tree. With it's increased healing on the target of your RM it would make Divine Right more worthwhile.

    Censure:
    It does paltry damaged compared to similar abilities. This change would increase it dps without front loading damage, in addition to adding threat from the extra dmg when used with MoL.

    Resplendent Embrace/Just Defense:
    As opposed to already applying Healer's Covenant/Unstable transformation/Latent Blaze/etc.?

    If you are Tanking as Justicar you would use them on yourself, if you are support healing as Justicar you would use them on the tank.

    If it poses that big of an issue, reduce their effectiveness by 50% when used on the target of your RM. Although I do not perceive it as being one.

    Interdict:
    QoL change. Having it silence on a successful interrupt would do wonders for ae pulls and grouping mobs together when Rebuke is down and there is no place to LoS.

    Salvation:
    The only thing I suggested as a change was for it to proc 2x the healing on all life damage abilities instead of just justicar abilities. It would not change anything other then synergy with maybe druid and inq.

    So aside from the only difference or complaint is threat? That can be adjusted and tuned as needed. So that is the reasoning behind what I have suggested.
    Last edited by Stokesey; 08-02-2013 at 02:20 PM.

  14. #14
    RIFT Guide Writer TheGrinnz's Avatar
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    The very presence of the phrase "support healing as Justicar" shows the issue with some of your suggestions.

    The tank does not cast cooldowns on other tanks, the healers do. You are suggesting a paradigm shift.

    And no, we do not need inquisitor damaging abilities benefitting fully from salvation.
    Last edited by TheGrinnz; 08-02-2013 at 02:23 PM.

  15. #15
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    With all due respect Grinnz, I do not see any of the issues that you or anyone may perceive with the suggestions.

    I'm strictly suggesting things in an attempt to provide more functionality and synergy. Will it shake things up a bit? Probably. Would it be game changing? Unlikely.

    If a tank spends his/her cooldowns on another tank, that is their decision. Then when they have to take a big hit and don't have them it's their responsibility or they can rely on the healers to use theirs as you mentioned.

    It's mostly there as another means to protect the target of your RM and would mostly be used in the capacity of a support healing role. Would also add some viability from a PvP standpoint.

    A melee support healer is one role that is lacking in this game. Justicar innately has the additional survivalism from their gift, miens and talents to provide that role.

    Currently the Status quo for Justicar is 61pnt tank or bust. Anything less and you are not a viable Tank due to the Gift system and lack of tanky abilities in other trees. Sure there are some subspecs for Open World and 5man content. But largely its 61pnt or bust.

    If you drop it down to 48-54 point justicar, it allows for greater versatility and choice from a healing support standpoint. Add in the suggestions posted and it now becomes viable, while not outshining the other healers and DPS. And 61pnt Justicar is still a tank.

    Sure there will need to be some balancing and adjustments. Maybe for salvation 2x healing only proc from instant cast life abilities so the only Inq ability it would proc the 2x heal is SH and NR (the ability itself has to be instant, not made to be instant through talents)

    But that is the great thing about this game. The Dev's listen to an extent to the player base. As it seems Clerics are going through their soul overhauls I'd figure I'd point out a few things that would be nice to have as a Justicar since it doesn't appear any changes have been discussed on the PTS for it yet. We got Inq, Sham, Druid, Cab, and Puri so far from what I've seen. Still have Warden, Def, Sent, & Just.

    While I may be part of the vocal minority for wanting a melee support healer that doesn't rely on a pet, that doesn't make the suggestions any less valid, especially if they do not radically affect the current Justicar Tanking flow in a negative manner.

    Speaking of Paradigm Shifts...Healing Warriors and Tanking Mages....cats and dogs living together....total chaos and anarchy!

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