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Thread: Silly, but Maybe Insightful Thought

  1. #1
    General of Telara Kriptini's Avatar
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    Default Silly, but Maybe Insightful Thought

    Could Clerics be harder to balance than the other callings because we lack a secondary resource system?

    Warriors have Attack Points, Mages have Charge, and Rogues have Combo Points.

    Justicars have always had Convictions and Inquisitors have had Life and Death Concord, which is sort of like Combo Points but not really.

    I dunno, it's just a thought I had.
    Last edited by Kriptini; 07-28-2013 at 11:58 AM.

  2. #2
    Rift Chaser
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    i wouldn't be against having convictions being spread across all our souls or changing it to something else if the name doesn't suit.

    if you remember we had something similar to convictions (cant remember the name sorry)with cabalist in 1.0 but sadly got removed, but changing the souls to incorporate a resource mechanic like this would be a nice addition.

    in reply to your first question I don't think a lack of an additional resource makes us harder to balance if anything should make it easier.
    Last edited by Fliptrik; 07-28-2013 at 01:54 PM.

  3. #3
    General of Telara Kriptini's Avatar
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    Oh yeah, I remember the Decay mechanic that Cab had... and how when they implemented a channel ability to get Decay stacks, it did a ton of damage.
    Last edited by Kriptini; 07-28-2013 at 02:17 PM.

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    Plane Walker Kolfinna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kriptini View Post
    Could Clerics be harder to balance than the other callings because we lack a secondary resource system?

    Warriors have Attack Points, Mages have Charge, and Rogues have Combo Points.

    Justicars have always had Convictions and Inquisitors have had Life and Death Concord, which is sort of like Combo Points but not really.

    I dunno, it's just a thought I had.
    That's exactly what I've thought for some time now! Except, I'd even go one step further and say that most Cleric specs don't even have a Primary resource system.

    Most warriors and rogues have to worry about energy, but outside of Ward of Scorching, Crucial Invocation, and Healing Effusion, we don't have to worry about mana. I mean, sure, it eventually runs out on Justicar or Shaman if the fight's taking too long, but you don't actually "manage" it.

    Take something like Paragon's Flurry or Nightblade's Ebon Fury. The specs burn through their primary resource over the course of a minute or two, then they flip a toggle or start a channel or pop a CD to start rebuilding their primary resource. Mana is nowhere near that kinda consumption level. Clerics are always, basically, at 100% power. The only thing stopping them from using most abilities are cooldowns.

    On paper, that should be the easiest thing to balance against, and it is! Except, well, it isn't.

    I like to think DPS (at least with foreseen specs) is balanced around the average player's capabilities. The top tier of raider, on the other hand, deals with getting unaccounted things out of specs to maximize their DPS. And the more resources there are to manage, the more potential there is to find extra "post-balance" DPS.

    Other classes get big ol' complicated things that half the parsers don't figure out until a month after it's been on live, but clerics can be "solved" on day one. You balance a mage against what a cleric is doing now, but then the mage hivemind figures out how to squeak 5% more damage from toggling their toggle, and suddenly there's disparity. At least, I like to blame it on that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kriptini View Post
    Could Clerics be harder to balance than the other callings because we lack a secondary resource system?

    Warriors have Attack Points, Mages have Charge, and Rogues have Combo Points.

    Justicars have always had Convictions and Inquisitors have had Life and Death Concord, which is sort of like Combo Points but not really.

    I dunno, it's just a thought I had.
    No.

    It's because Mages and Warriors tend to provide misinformation in all cases, both to devs and to other players, and for some reason the devs continue to listen to it.

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    Rift Chaser Sikph's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zomtik View Post
    No.

    It's because Mages and Warriors tend to provide misinformation in all cases, both to devs and to other players, and for some reason the devs continue to listen to it.
    I'm sure they'd say the same thing about us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikph View Post
    I'm sure they'd say the same thing about us.
    Mage: constantly OP

    Cleric: constantly UP

    Evidence says otherwise.

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    Soulwalker
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    I've had the same thought as the OP when SL drew close.

    I think it would be lovely to have a system based on element pairs. Let life and death concord take over from convictions (and possibly foul growth). Let water and air form a pair, as well as fire and earth.

    Things like unified theory could be activated by sacrificing 4 stacks and so on. Sentinel could well get an -icar like group healing ability using up stacks and so on.

    But to see that happing would require larger reworks. On can dream for 3.0 though.

  9. #9
    Rift Master Guyjax's Avatar
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    No, we don't need a secondary source. Log into the PTS and parse yourself.
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  10. #10
    General of Telara Kriptini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guyjax View Post
    No, we don't need a secondary source. Log into the PTS and parse yourself.
    I'm not going to ignore the fact that Clerics have been imbalanced since launch just because we're balanced now.

  11. #11
    Rift Chaser Sikph's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kriptini View Post
    I'm not going to ignore the fact that Clerics have been imbalanced since launch just because we're balanced now.
    By that logic, you should just give up now.

    But seriously. I understand your point of view. The concern that we slip below into mediocrity again is ever present. And historically, although all classes sometimes dip, Clerics tend to dip more often. I just don't think that radically changing the way our specs work is going to solve a problem. It's an awful lot of work, will cause controversy regardless, and at the end of it all, we still may end up dipping behind.

    There's no guarantee's in balance, especially with an mmo with this much class variety.

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  12. #12
    General of Telara Kriptini's Avatar
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    Yeah, I dunno, I just thought there may have been some correlation.

  13. #13
    Soulwalker
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    Not primarily balance wise, but certainly to implement some interesting system particular to clerics, I think for future reworks this might be something to look at.

    I would certainly be excited to see it.

  14. #14
    Rift Master Krumelur's Avatar
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    I suggest expanding on Convictions somehow. Perhaps they could be "always recharging" up to 7 like energy/power, but still use mana as our primary. 7 "free instant heals" for Sentinel, as an example, like Doctrine of Bliss but not only a self heal, is a way to use the resource... or remove the cooldown from the shaman charge, and make it cost convictions (like... 3 convictions for non-op'ness)... stuff like that

    oh and "convictions can be gained from healing"

  15. #15
    Soulwalker
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    I would favor a split by elementpairs but yeah that's exactly what I'd like to see too. Some heals would gain you those "charges" which could be invested in more powerful heals/abilities. You could create nice synergies between many souls, not actually bringing -icar back but bringing some of it'as functionality to diverse combinations.

    I'd think of Inquisitor/Sentinel and Cabalist/Defiler. If those souls gained you stacks to use with the other souls abilites that could encourage non 61 builds some more.

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