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Thread: Shaman: generally inferior to Harbinger?

  1. #1
    Rift Disciple
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    Default Shaman: generally inferior to Harbinger?

    Throwing away all stupid arguments about P2W (albeit potentially warranted here), the more I play Harbinger as I am working on leveling my mage, the more I realize Shaman is really just totally inferior in .. basically every way.

    I took a little bit to ponder why it feels this way.
    1. Shaman only has an active cooldown that increases dodge/parry. It's built into the Harbinger soul, and it can be improved via abilities that are always available. In addition, Harbinger has very strong cooldowns to deal with damage, which puts it out in front of Shaman by miles.
    2. Shaman only has Glory of the Chosen and Glacial Shield for survivability. Its only stun is 3s on 1m cooldown.
    3. Shaman has almost exclusively talents designed to buff the damage of its abilities directly. Most abilities in Shaman are unbelievably bad on their own and require multiple talents to be worth using. On the contrary, Harbinger spends most of its points modifying the way it plays (not massively buffing the abilities) and improving survivability (dramatically).
    4. Shaman does less damage, and will fall way behind at 61 (and Furious Assault is a pretty massive buff to its damage). This is supposed to be addressed by the patch next week, but so far it's still behind, and the buffs have been fairly high in the tree, leaving its damage used in a hybrid significantly worse than Harbinger.
    5. It has "melee from ranged" built-in, making it have the best disconnect DPS of all melee souls in the game, which is HUGE in all aspects of gameplay. Shaman, to contrast, has the worst. By an enormous, massive, incredibly unbelievable margin.
    6. While "burst" is a general strength of Shaman, Empyrean Ascension makes Shaman burst look weak.
    7. Harbinger has stealth.
    8. Harbinger has the ability to "split" DPS for short-lived targets with near perfect efficiency, without moving (30m range on Blademark), while continuing to do DPS to the original target. Shaman can't compete with this even remotely.

    Because of #3, Harbinger is also much more amenable to hybridization. Shaman, because you NEED 61 points (not just because of Furious Assault, but also to get all the ability buffs in the soul), it cannot be reasonably used in a hybrid build.

    I've noticed that Harbinger does extremely good DPS while simultaneously being incredibly survivable, while also having incredible levels of utility. This argument might only be pertinent to solo PvE content, but it has an impact in PvP, too, and being able to hybrid impacts much more.

    To contrast, Shaman is easily the squishiest melee spec in the game by a very wide margin. It requires a healing AND tank subsoul to even approach the level of survivability Harbinger has built in, and can't compete with the utility at all.

    Will we ever see any of this addressed? Also interestingly, Inquisitor is squishier than Harbinger. So is Druid, if you're trying to do good damage. What gives?
    Last edited by Zomtik; 07-28-2013 at 01:41 AM.

  2. #2
    Ascendant Eughe's Avatar
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    I agree with the sentiment. I hated how for most of its life, shaman revolved around buffing/maximizing one skill, and even to date, it still does that (although admittedly, they have made it a bit better).

    But shaman skill and passives are still far to specific for them to be combined with other souls. But that isnt exactly a shaman thing, but a cleric thing, especially within our dps souls, which, still has very little in common aside from the first 10 points.

  3. #3
    Soulwalker
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    I am a long time cleric player who finally broke down and made a mage, (level 50 now).

    It is pretty clear that the mage is better than the cleric in every way. I don't know if the cleric changes will help this situation, but from what I have seen of the purifier changes on the test server I am not hopeful.

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    Ascendant shortycool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackslash View Post
    I am a long time cleric player who finally broke down and made a mage, (level 50 now).

    It is pretty clear that the mage is better than the cleric in every way. I don't know if the cleric changes will help this situation, but from what I have seen of the purifier changes on the test server I am not hopeful.
    Make a rogue their talent trees are so good it will make your cleric cry.

  5. #5
    Ascendant Eughe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shortycool View Post
    Make a rogue their talent trees are so good it will make your cleric cry.
    Rogues are fun, but if you want to dps, they are highly inferior. And the good dps specs run outta energy annoyingly fast.

    You'd have a much better time rolling mages.


    Mages are totes the new rogues.

  6. #6
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zomtik View Post
    Throwing away all stupid arguments about P2W (albeit potentially warranted here), the more I play Harbinger as I am working on leveling my mage, the more I realize Shaman is really just totally inferior in .. basically every way.

    I took a little bit to ponder why it feels this way.
    1. Shaman only has an active cooldown that increases dodge/parry. It's built into the Harbinger soul, and it can be improved via abilities that are always available. In addition, Harbinger has very strong cooldowns to deal with damage, which puts it out in front of Shaman by miles.
    I'm thinking Devout Deflection should be a Gift for Cleric melee and tank souls (and maybe all Cleric souls). It's too high in the Justicar tree to be any good for us for as little as it returns. FWIW, it boosted my Shaman's dodge and parry from less than 1% to only 9-10%.

    I like in theory how Shaman and Warden could synthesize - 15 Warden can give us little boosts to damage and a decent ranged attack, but healing/survivability is lacking with Soothing Stream and/or Orbs of the Stream just out of reach.
    Marz - 60 Warrior, Frozendeadguy - 60 Cleric
    Laethys

  7. #7
    General of Telara Kriptini's Avatar
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    Well... Shaman has much better AoE than Harb... that's it. =P

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    Soulwalker
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    I dont have much Experience, but Harbinger seems to have a much better Survivability with its Absorb Shields, Stuns, active and passive Heals.
    If they would improve the PvP Survivability of Justicar (lower half of the Tree seems to do not much in regards to Survivability) and gave it some Synergy with Shaman, they could improve the Situation a lot, i think.

  9. #9
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    well honestly your post is all over the place.

    you complain about them having 10 seconds of stealth on a 60 second timer then complain about hybridization. you do realize to get that nearly useless stealth you have to go full harbinger right?

    you complain about dps then survivability. for a harbinger to get any decent survivability they have to split spec with chloro which is not the best dps. it is quite a bit inferior to say harb/necro in dps for that ability to heal itself decently.

    also the only thing i ever use harbinger for is solo play, and in comparison clerics have druid/justicar which is far superior for soloing.

    i hate to say it, but this just comes off like another ridiculous cleric whine where apparently the mage can spec 61/61/61.

    cleric is a very good class. it has one of the best tanking souls, one of the best pvp dps souls, the best pvp healing soul, a top tier melee dps soul, a ranged dps soul being buffed to top tier, and you are wanted as healers in all parts of the game, though maybe not specifically main tank healer in raids.

    if you seriously think you are so broken, play something else, because its you, not the class.

  10. #10
    Ascendant shortycool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForumFritz View Post
    well honestly your post is all over the place.

    you complain about them having 10 seconds of stealth on a 60 second timer then complain about hybridization. you do realize to get that nearly useless stealth you have to go full harbinger right?

    you complain about dps then survivability. for a harbinger to get any decent survivability they have to split spec with chloro which is not the best dps. it is quite a bit inferior to say harb/necro in dps for that ability to heal itself decently.

    also the only thing i ever use harbinger for is solo play, and in comparison clerics have druid/justicar which is far superior for soloing.

    i hate to say it, but this just comes off like another ridiculous cleric whine where apparently the mage can spec 61/61/61.

    cleric is a very good class. it has one of the best tanking souls, one of the best pvp dps souls, the best pvp healing soul, a top tier melee dps soul, a ranged dps soul being buffed to top tier, and you are wanted as healers in all parts of the game, though maybe not specifically main tank healer in raids.

    if you seriously think you are so broken, play something else, because its you, not the class.
    play harb in pvp, then play shaman. k thx bye

  11. #11
    Sword of Telara meoka2368's Avatar
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    To start with I play primarily (near exclusively) mage.
    Harby does have it's power, it's true, and generally is very survivable. I have noticed that it lacks a few things, though. Specifically, there's no real shtf ability within the soul itself.

    I find that Harbinger works really well as a supplementary soul to other ones. Great for hybrids, especially when you use Eldritch Power.

    But over all, I agree. From what I have played of Cleric, Shaman didn't impress me, and wasn't fun enough flavour wise (like druid) to make up for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zomtik View Post
    Throwing away all stupid arguments about P2W (albeit potentially warranted here)
    All SL souls are available without having to spend actual money. Just takes a bit of work. (plat to buy REX, REX for credits, credits for souls)

  12. #12
    Sword of Telara meoka2368's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shortycool View Post
    play harb in pvp, then play shaman. k thx bye
    He specifically mentioned that he was playing solo, as in pve.
    As such, your comment about how it works in pvp doesn't really matter to his experience.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eughe View Post
    Rogues are fun, but if you want to dps, they are highly inferior.
    that is ridiculously wrong but don't let that get in the way of your mage hatin



    Quote Originally Posted by ForumFritz View Post
    well honestly your post is all over the place.

    you complain about them having 10 seconds of stealth on a 60 second timer then complain about hybridization. you do realize to get that nearly useless stealth you have to go full harbinger right?

    you complain about dps then survivability. for a harbinger to get any decent survivability they have to split spec with chloro which is not the best dps. it is quite a bit inferior to say harb/necro in dps for that ability to heal itself decently.

    also the only thing i ever use harbinger for is solo play, and in comparison clerics have druid/justicar which is far superior for soloing.

    i hate to say it, but this just comes off like another ridiculous cleric whine where apparently the mage can spec 61/61/61.

    cleric is a very good class. it has one of the best tanking souls, one of the best pvp dps souls, the best pvp healing soul, a top tier melee dps soul, a ranged dps soul being buffed to top tier, and you are wanted as healers in all parts of the game, though maybe not specifically main tank healer in raids.

    if you seriously think you are so broken, play something else, because its you, not the class.
    I love you right now but you're wasting your time trying to reason or talk sense on the cleric forums when it comes to mages
    Last edited by Gruntled; 07-28-2013 at 01:29 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Frailaq View Post

    tl;dr - Trion should do this: Melee = Turret Ranged > Mobile Ranged

  14. #14
    Plane Walker
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    why are clerics up mages *** so much? why not compare shaman to rb or nb or sin? what about harb compared to those specs that have mass cooldowns? Every spec is inferior to another in some way so deal with it and suggest things that will make YOUR soul better instead of asking why it doesn't have xyz.

  15. #15
    Ascendant Eughe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gruntled View Post
    that is ridiculously wrong but don't let that get in the way of your mage hatin
    How is it wrong? And how is it Mage hating?

    Or are you just practicing your typing skills?

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