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Thread: Cleric disparity in melee build by not having dodge and parry.

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    Shield of Telara aabuster1's Avatar
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    Default Cleric disparity in melee build by not having dodge and parry.

    Clerics DPS melee souls do not get the benefit of dodge and parry whereas ALL warrior souls, even the ranged one, get over 12-20% passively via their strength. In the past I thought this was because of cleric shields and passive heals. Now however warriors also have passive heals and shields but the shaman and druid still do not get any type of parry and dodge.

    The mage also gets some form of dodge and parry in the harbringer melee build.

    Rogues have natural dodge and parry because they stack dexterity and strength so all their builds, regardless of it being range or melee, have this basic survival stat.

    At one point before the justicar revamps all the cleric melee souls could get conversions for intelligence to be dodge and wisdom to be parry (or was it vice-versa) by going zero points into justicar.

    Can the druid and shaman get some form of help in being equal on this overlooked disparity between the classes. Perhaps something automatic above the 15 point level in both druid and shaman souls that convert wisdom and intelligence to dodge and parry equivalent to what ALL the other melee souls in the game already have.

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    RIFT Guide Writer Redcruxs's Avatar
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    no, just no...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Redcruxs View Post
    no, just no...
    He has a point. Just because you don't like the fact doesn't make it untrue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Redcruxs View Post
    no, just no...
    Why not?

    /10char

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    Plane Touched Champian's Avatar
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    Reminds me of the old trollicar specs with a lot of parry/dodge. T'was ridiculous.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Champian View Post
    Reminds me of the old trollicar specs with a lot of parry/dodge. T'was ridiculous.
    That was before the justicar rework that gave justis raw mit and dodge and parry have been severely nerfed in general since SL. In rank gear my cleric's dodge and parry are both under 10%

    It should be noted that I could only find a 10% dodge/parry mod for harbingers. I'm not sure what a pvp or dps geared rogue or warrior could achieve at level 60, though. Leaves me somewhat curious actually.

    It seems that if shamans or druids were to gain dodge and parry, the benefits in general would be rather negligible anyway. If hit still counters dodge and parry in pvp, the benefits would be totally irrelevant.

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    RIFT Guide Writer Redcruxs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xarog View Post
    Why not?

    /10char
    why not? Because unless you're getting cleaved, dodge and parry has no impact on survivability. If you are getting cleaved you have bigger survivability issues than can be solved by dodge/parry...

    There is absolutely no difference in survivability between warrior/rogue and cleric melee dps, if there were it wouldn't be because of dodge and parry

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    Quote Originally Posted by Redcruxs View Post
    why not? Because unless you're getting cleaved, dodge and parry has no impact on survivability. If you are getting cleaved you have bigger survivability issues than can be solved by dodge/parry...

    There is absolutely no difference in survivability between warrior/rogue and cleric melee dps, if there were it wouldn't be because of dodge and parry
    Oh, right, raiding is the only thing people do in this game...

    There's plenty of situations as a cleric where you don't have the luxury of having a tank pick up the aggro for you. In those situations there's no double whatsoever that dodge and parry has an impact on your chances of surviving the encounter.

    And frankly, I think all the melee souls (not just cleric) could use a bit of love when it comes to survivability in pvp.

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    RIFT Guide Writer Redcruxs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xarog View Post
    Oh, right, raiding is the only thing people do in this game...

    There's plenty of situations as a cleric where you don't have the luxury of having a tank pick up the aggro for you. In those situations there's no double whatsoever that dodge and parry has an impact on your chances of surviving the encounter.

    And frankly, I think all the melee souls (not just cleric) could use a bit of love when it comes to survivability in pvp.
    outside of raids druid has tons of survivability through aid of the forest and shield of oak, which is why most people use druid as a solo soul (not to mention the fairy healer/tank to keep us alive)

    shaman has glacial shield and glory of the chosen constantly healing them, and windwalk which isn't much but shaman isn't designed as a good solo'ing soul anyways...

    our survivability outside of raids isn't really an issue

    in PVP of course melee gets destroyed but most of the time we're getting destroyed by ranged characters that we can't dodge or parry. survivability in PVP could be improved but it would be a buff to warriors and rogues as well (which is not what you are intending i think)

    there is no way around it, dodge and parry are just fluff stats as far a dps souls are concerned

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    Quote Originally Posted by Redcruxs View Post
    outside of raids druid has tons of survivability through aid of the forest and shield of oak, which is why most people use druid as a solo soul (not to mention the fairy healer/tank to keep us alive)
    I agree that druid is in a good place with respect to soloing.

    shaman has glacial shield and glory of the chosen constantly healing them, and windwalk which isn't much but shaman isn't designed as a good solo'ing soul anyways...

    our survivability outside of raids isn't really an issue
    This is a straw man argument. The OP didn't state "cleric survivability sucks", he stated that there was a disparity with respect to how our melee souls fail to benefit from dodge and parry while other melee souls do not have this drawback. You've still failed to explain why such a change is a bad thing.

    in PVP of course melee gets destroyed but most of the time we're getting destroyed by ranged characters that we can't dodge or parry. survivability in PVP could be improved but it would be a buff to warriors and rogues as well (which is not what you are intending i think)
    It's not just the mages which attack from afar. And as for balance, like I said, all the melee souls should have their survivability improved in pvp. If a melee fighter gets into a ranged player's personal space, the ranged player ought to have to move away in order to survive. Otherwise the trade-off for not being able to attack at range is just not there.

    However, implementing this in pvp and balancing it across 4 callings each with multiple souls is probably impossible.

    there is no way around it, dodge and parry are just fluff stats as far a dps souls are concerned
    I've said as much already.

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    shamans could possibly use some dodge/parry up high enough in the tree so it wasn't reachable unless you were going deep shaman.

    druids have a tank pet and a healer pet. i cant for the life of me think of a reason they need better defensive options.

  12. #12
    RIFT Guide Writer Redcruxs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xarog View Post


    This is a straw man argument. The OP didn't state "cleric survivability sucks", he stated that there was a disparity with respect to how our melee souls fail to benefit from dodge and parry while other melee souls do not have this drawback. You've still failed to explain why such a change is a bad thing.
    I guess what i mean is that there is no disparity because dodge/parry give such tiny tiny benefits that you might as well not even count it towards survivability

    as for why its a bad idea, if clerics were given dodge/parry it could be used as an argument that we don't need any other "real" survivability improvements that could help us in PVP

    basically, don't fix what isn't broken

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    Quote Originally Posted by Redcruxs View Post
    I guess what i mean is that there is no disparity because dodge/parry give such tiny tiny benefits that you might as well not even count it towards survivability

    as for why its a bad idea, if clerics were given dodge/parry it could be used as an argument that we don't need any other "real" survivability improvements that could help us in PVP

    basically, don't fix what isn't broken
    You can't have your cake and eat it. Either clerics need a survivability buff in pvp or they don't. If they do then gaining passive dodge and parry in a melee soul, however slight, would be a good thing.

    However, given the low rates of parry and dodge, I don't think any dev (and lets face it their opinion is what actually matters) would be swayed by the assertion that dodge and parry in melee souls gives those melee souls substancial survivability.

    However, if the game ever returns to a situation where natural dodge and parry is more significant overall, it sure would be nice for melee clerics to gain the same benefit as rogues and warriors. And hell, I'd even go as far as to say harbingers ought to derive a benefit from it too.

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    Shield of Telara aabuster1's Avatar
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    In the alternative I could suggest that dodge and parry be taken away from all non-tank souls. In that case I would bet that all of a sudden the other classes that already have dodge and parry as a basic survival skill would rise up in an uproar. However asking for the cleric to be equal in what other classes take for-granted is such taboo?

    For comparison's sake: A normal raid geared shaman or druid has less than 1% dodge and parry as the game stands now whereas an equivalently geared warrior has over 12-20% dodge and parry.

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    It's a technical limitation that they can't directly allow int -> dodge, wis -> parry, wis -> block conversion. They couldn't make the talents mutually exclusive either, so if passive avoidance conversion is put into druid and shaman, the cleric will get 2x the avoidance from stats if they take the appropriate talents in those trees.

    Note that this was back during Zinbik's time, so the situation might have been resolved.

    At one point before the justicar revamps all the cleric melee souls could get conversions for intelligence to be dodge and wisdom to be parry (or was it vice-versa) by going zero points into justicar.
    This was never true. Devout Deflection was added in beta 7. Before that Justicar don't gain parry or dodge from stats. This was its original incarnation of Devout Deflection:

    * Devout Deflection: Now available as a tier 5 branch ability, taking up to 3 points. Increases Parry by 65-195% of Spell Power.

    It was changed to the following in 1.3:

    * Devout Deflection: Now increases Parry by 30-90% of your Spell Power, and Dodge by 20-60% of your Spell Power.

    It was changed to the following in 1.8:

    * Devout Deflection: Now adds 33-100% of your Wisdom to Parry, and 33-100% of your Intelligence to Dodge.

    And Devout Deflection has remain that way, except we now gain 0 parry/dodge from str/dex once we put a point in it.

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