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Thread: To many skills?

  1. #1
    Soulwalker
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    Default To many skills?

    I am not new to mmo's, but I am new to rift and I have to say clerics have way to many skills. They have a unnecessary amount. Does anyone else agree with this? Do I really need to have 10 healing spells instead of 2-3. Fast cast heal for low amount, slow cast for a lot and instant cast with cd for medium, and maybe a hot depending on the spec.
    As a healing cleric I seem to think macros are pointless because most of the spells are instant cast with no cd. I'm not expecting a 1 button spam build like some classes but Jesus I don't want to be running around with 3-4 bars full of spells and having to hot key out every bar it's just insane.

    Idk who is in charge of the cleric design but clerics need a serious overhaul. Not just for healing but dps to. I'm not claiming to be a master of the class but basic things like how many spells are needed to play a spec shouldn't be a problem.

    Another solution could be that they need to just add CDs to more skills instead of having just about every skill instant cast with no cd.

    I've been into rift because it seemed to take some of the best aspects of previous mmo's like ultima online, Everquest, and wow and put them together. At the same time it feels like the game didnt have much thought put into it. None of this will stop me from playing the game because its free and you can't beat free. Really though there is a lot to be improved upon in this game like classes, quests are god awful and do not flow correctly in some zones. The required xp jump from 50-51 is insane and its takes forever to level after 50.

    Anyways thought I'd just vent a bit and see if anyone else has been thinking about some of this stuff. I could go on and on but I'd end up making a stupid long post

  2. #2
    RIFT Guide Writer TheGrinnz's Avatar
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    Unless you're talking about warden I don't see the problem. Other than some skills simply being pointless.

    Sentinel heals:
    Healing Invocation
    Crucial Invocation
    Subtle Invocation - not usually needed
    Healing Breath - instant
    Fullness of Life - CD
    Healer's Covenant - CD
    Vigilance - CD
    Divine Call - AoE CD
    Healing Communion - useless

    Purifier heals:
    Symbol of the Sun
    Ward of Fire
    Ward of Scorching
    Healing Flare - instant
    Spiritual Conflagration - CD
    Rite of the Forge - CD
    Fiery Will - CD (in 58+ puri spec)
    Ward of Flame - unneeded
    Symbol of the Torch - unneeded
    Symbol of the Hearth - useless
    Gathering of Flame - AoE CD

    Defiler heals:
    Ghastly Restoration
    Loathsome Restoration
    Hideous Reconstruction - HoT
    Explosive Growth - stack up foul growths
    Unstable Transformation - CD
    plus DPS abilities

    Warden heals:
    Healing Flood - HoT
    Pool of Restoration - instant
    Healing Effusion - instant
    Healing Cataract
    Monsoon - CD
    Wave of Renewal - CD
    Downpour - CD
    Healing Spray - ST HoT
    Soothing Stream - ST HoT, not usually needed
    Overflowing Renewal - ST, not usually needed
    plus DPS abilities, or just Geyser

    All of those CDs have unique uses so if it was effective to macro them, it would kind of defeat the point of them being CDs. All of the other abilities listed (except for the ones marked as unneeded) have different use cases so again if they were macroable it would lower the usefulness of the spec. The only way to reduce the number of buttons in these cases is to make the specs even more faceroll than they already are, warden aside.

    But I do have 4 bars of 4-6 abilities each in every spec because I intend to use them to their fullest extent. For DPS Inquisitor has like 6 buttons and Shaman can be simplified. Druid has a lot of buttons but some of them can be left out. Cabalist of course has many sigils that have independent uses and curses/DoTs that have to be used separately.

  3. #3
    Sword of Telara Valavus's Avatar
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    I want more buttons.
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  4. #4
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGrinnz View Post
    Unless you're talking about warden I don't see the problem. Other than some skills simply being pointless.

    Sentinel heals:
    Healing Invocation
    Crucial Invocation
    Subtle Invocation - not usually needed
    Healing Breath - instant
    Fullness of Life - CD
    Healer's Covenant - CD
    Vigilance - CD
    Divine Call - AoE CD
    Healing Communion - useless

    Purifier heals:
    Symbol of the Sun
    Ward of Fire
    Ward of Scorching
    Healing Flare - instant
    Spiritual Conflagration - CD
    Rite of the Forge - CD
    Fiery Will - CD (in 58+ puri spec)
    Ward of Flame - unneeded
    Symbol of the Torch - unneeded
    Symbol of the Hearth - useless
    Gathering of Flame - AoE CD

    Defiler heals:
    Ghastly Restoration
    Loathsome Restoration
    Hideous Reconstruction - HoT
    Explosive Growth - stack up foul growths
    Unstable Transformation - CD
    plus DPS abilities

    Warden heals:
    Healing Flood - HoT
    Pool of Restoration - instant
    Healing Effusion - instant
    Healing Cataract
    Monsoon - CD
    Wave of Renewal - CD
    Downpour - CD
    Healing Spray - ST HoT
    Soothing Stream - ST HoT, not usually needed
    Overflowing Renewal - ST, not usually needed
    plus DPS abilities, or just Geyser

    All of those CDs have unique uses so if it was effective to macro them, it would kind of defeat the point of them being CDs. All of the other abilities listed (except for the ones marked as unneeded) have different use cases so again if they were macroable it would lower the usefulness of the spec. The only way to reduce the number of buttons in these cases is to make the specs even more faceroll than they already are, warden aside.

    But I do have 4 bars of 4-6 abilities each in every spec because I intend to use them to their fullest extent. For DPS Inquisitor has like 6 buttons and Shaman can be simplified. Druid has a lot of buttons but some of them can be left out. Cabalist of course has many sigils that have independent uses and curses/DoTs that have to be used separately.

    Maybe it's just the specs I'm reading about on the forums. It's like here is a macro with 1-2 skills but u need to keep these other 5 skills seperate and it goes on and on depending on the spec u have.
    Currently I'm Druid spec and I would say Druid has it about right not to much not to little. But when I was trying warden spec I believe it was for healing it was just crazy having so many heal spells and cd's like its unnecessary.

    Why is there 3 types of healing souls? Why not have 1 balanced to combine the 3 souls. That could solve the problem because u could knock out all the useless spells and cut down on needed multiple types of the same spell.

    I guess I'm more so curious as to why was the cleric designed this way.

  5. #5
    General of Telara Kriptini's Avatar
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    Budapest, what MMORPGs have you played to make you say that Rift has too many skills? Coming from EQ2, it seems like all the classes in Rift don't have enough skills.

  6. #6
    Ascendant Aeonblade's Avatar
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    Honestly, most of the time I feel like the classes could use more buttons and tools rather than less. As it stands now, I can play this game only using 2-3 hotbars 99% of the time due to low number of abilities and the ability to macro some of them.
    Last edited by Aeonblade; 07-11-2013 at 10:35 AM.
    Leondria 60 P6x Mage

  7. #7
    Champion of Telara
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGrinnz View Post
    Unless you're talking about warden I don't see the problem. Other than some skills simply being pointless.
    This right here. Too many pointless skills in this game.
    I kill more players than anyone! Just ask the last raid that asked me to heal!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Daglar View Post
    I wanted to come out and say the following pretty definitively: There is no goal to make DPS clerics that DPS do less damage than other callings.

  8. #8
    Ascendant Eughe's Avatar
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    Yeah, the heal souls in this game are pretty simple a d straightforward compared to other healers I've played.

    Not too sure how you can say there are too many skills. I still think all 4 are missing important features catered to their theme.

  9. #9
    Sword of Telara Valavus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Budapest View Post
    Maybe it's just the specs I'm reading about on the forums. It's like here is a macro with 1-2 skills but u need to keep these other 5 skills seperate and it goes on and on depending on the spec u have.
    Currently I'm Druid spec and I would say Druid has it about right not to much not to little. But when I was trying warden spec I believe it was for healing it was just crazy having so many heal spells and cd's like its unnecessary.

    Why is there 3 types of healing souls? Why not have 1 balanced to combine the 3 souls. That could solve the problem because u could knock out all the useless spells and cut down on needed multiple types of the same spell.

    I guess I'm more so curious as to why was the cleric designed this way.
    Each calling was given a archetype to generally lean towards. Clerics are predisposed to have the most versatility with the options we have pertaining to healing. Thus, we have the most healing souls out of all the callings. If you are going to make a calling be the best at something, you have to give it a lot of tools to handle various situations. So it is a contradiction in intentions for said souls if you only give them 3-4 buttons to push.

    I have to wonder how many MMO's you have played in...as what you are asking for is not something common in any of the ones I know of that had any success. What you want is a console level playstyle, and that just isn't going to be popular in a game with such skill sets as most MMO's contain.

    TL;DR: As much as I hate saying this...L2P.
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  10. #10
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valavus View Post
    Each calling was given a archetype to generally lean towards. Clerics are predisposed to have the most versatility with the options we have pertaining to healing. Thus, we have the most healing souls out of all the callings. If you are going to make a calling be the best at something, you have to give it a lot of tools to handle various situations. So it is a contradiction in intentions for said souls if you only give them 3-4 buttons to push.

    I have to wonder how many MMO's you have played in...as what you are asking for is not something common in any of the ones I know of that had any success. What you want is a console level playstyle, and that just isn't going to be popular in a game with such skill sets as most MMO's contain.

    TL;DR: As much as I hate saying this...L2P.
    I'm not trying to turn this into an argument. U can tell me l2p idc I know my background as being a top 10 world raider in eq and wow, I have also played ultima online. None not a single one of those games required more than 5 buttons for a class. If u used more than u had some serious issues. Now that's 5 macro buttons not 5 skills.

    Ill give u that the cleric is supposed to be versatile which is why they were given 3 callings that heal ok fine. The point of macros is to clear up clutter and allow skills to be used together. That becomes difficult when the macro system doesn't allow /wait command or stacking of instant cast spells etc.. It almost makes the system useless for a healing cleric this is. Dps cleric I have not run into this problem much not have I on Mage class, mages can have 1 button and **** but I won't get into that.

    When I'm playing a game I shouldn't have but maybe 3 situational skills. Why do I need 2 single target hots that are instant cast with no cd? Yeah they do slightly different things but u could combine the 2 skills and omg u have 1 less skill.

    I have only played rift for like a month but I have to say there are some aspects that I just think to myself wtf were the creators thinking. It makes more and more sense why the game didnt quite take off like it should have because it is a good game and has a lot of potential but it has a lot of flaws that over shadow the good.

    Also, I never stated I was having problems playing but I did say that there are far more skills than there should be.

  11. #11
    RIFT Guide Writer TheGrinnz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Budapest View Post
    When I'm playing a game I shouldn't have but maybe 3 situational skills. Why do I need 2 single target hots that are instant cast with no cd? Yeah they do slightly different things but u could combine the 2 skills and omg u have 1 less skill.
    The only example of this I can think of is Healing Spray and Soothing Stream in Warden, in which case you can simply ignore the existence of both of them since it's an AoE healing soul. And when it wasn't, the reason for having both was because Soothing Stream stacks up to 4 and Healing Spray is at full power immediately. (If you're wondering why they're there to begin with, Warden used to be very different.)
    Last edited by TheGrinnz; 07-11-2013 at 11:39 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Budapest View Post
    I'm not trying to turn this into an argument. U can tell me l2p idc I know my background as being a top 10 world raider in eq and wow, I have also played ultima online. None not a single one of those games required more than 5 buttons for a class. If u used more than u had some serious issues. Now that's 5 macro buttons not 5 skills.

    Ill give u that the cleric is supposed to be versatile which is why they were given 3 callings that heal ok fine. The point of macros is to clear up clutter and allow skills to be used together. That becomes difficult when the macro system doesn't allow /wait command or stacking of instant cast spells etc.. It almost makes the system useless for a healing cleric this is. Dps cleric I have not run into this problem much not have I on Mage class, mages can have 1 button and **** but I won't get into that.

    When I'm playing a game I shouldn't have but maybe 3 situational skills. Why do I need 2 single target hots that are instant cast with no cd? Yeah they do slightly different things but u could combine the 2 skills and omg u have 1 less skill.

    I have only played rift for like a month but I have to say there are some aspects that I just think to myself wtf were the creators thinking. It makes more and more sense why the game didnt quite take off like it should have because it is a good game and has a lot of potential but it has a lot of flaws that over shadow the good.

    Also, I never stated I was having problems playing but I did say that there are far more skills than there should be.
    some parts i agree on, others i dont.

    i do agree that it seems silly to have multiple variations of the same thing. ie one hot that heals more over time, one that heals less over time. -just as an example before someone gets uptight. these types of things do exist on some souls.

    i do not agree about less situational skills. i like situational skills because they require player thought and ability to be used properly and at the right times. without them games can be reduced to 5 button mash-fests like neverwinter.

    as far as the number of buttons you need, if you check around most classes do have macros posted to simplify them to a few buttons. i personally dont like that playstyle and prefer a manual approach, but the option is there if that is your thing. personally i think macros reduce the amount of player ability involved.

  13. #13
    Ascendant Aeonblade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Budapest View Post
    I'm not trying to turn this into an argument. U can tell me l2p idc I know my background as being a top 10 world raider in eq and wow, I have also played ultima online. None not a single one of those games required more than 5 buttons for a class. If u used more than u had some serious issues. Now that's 5 macro buttons not 5 skills.

    Ill give u that the cleric is supposed to be versatile which is why they were given 3 callings that heal ok fine. The point of macros is to clear up clutter and allow skills to be used together. That becomes difficult when the macro system doesn't allow /wait command or stacking of instant cast spells etc.. It almost makes the system useless for a healing cleric this is. Dps cleric I have not run into this problem much not have I on Mage class, mages can have 1 button and **** but I won't get into that.

    When I'm playing a game I shouldn't have but maybe 3 situational skills. Why do I need 2 single target hots that are instant cast with no cd? Yeah they do slightly different things but u could combine the 2 skills and omg u have 1 less skill.

    I have only played rift for like a month but I have to say there are some aspects that I just think to myself wtf were the creators thinking. It makes more and more sense why the game didnt quite take off like it should have because it is a good game and has a lot of potential but it has a lot of flaws that over shadow the good.

    Also, I never stated I was having problems playing but I did say that there are far more skills than there should be.
    If you want the honest truth it sounds like WoW has dulled your reflexes and/or senses if you only had to use 5 buttons and 3 situtationals. This game is built around situational awareness and skill usage much more than any other current MMO.

    Honestly I didn't know WoW had gotten that bad, that really saddens me as it did at one point mean the pinnacle of MMO raiding in Vanilla in my opinion.

    The fact that the game instilled in you the need for only 5 buttons and 3 skills shows to me that WoW is too easy, and you need to relearn in Rift how to play a proper MMO again.

    I still raid quite frequently in the original EQ, and I use 6 hot bars in the games between Spells/Skills/AA's/Potions/Clickies etc. In all EQ has about 30-40 buttons easily I commonly use while raiding on my druid.

    Rift is much less than that, but still significantly more than 5 buttons and 3 situationals.
    Leondria 60 P6x Mage

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Budapest View Post
    I'm not trying to turn this into an argument. U can tell me l2p idc I know my background as being a top 10 world raider in eq and wow, I have also played ultima online. None not a single one of those games required more than 5 buttons for a class. If u used more than u had some serious issues. Now that's 5 macro buttons not 5 skills.

    Ill give u that the cleric is supposed to be versatile which is why they were given 3 callings that heal ok fine. The point of macros is to clear up clutter and allow skills to be used together. That becomes difficult when the macro system doesn't allow /wait command or stacking of instant cast spells etc.. It almost makes the system useless for a healing cleric this is. Dps cleric I have not run into this problem much not have I on Mage class, mages can have 1 button and **** but I won't get into that.

    When I'm playing a game I shouldn't have but maybe 3 situational skills. Why do I need 2 single target hots that are instant cast with no cd? Yeah they do slightly different things but u could combine the 2 skills and omg u have 1 less skill.
    you were never a "top 10 world raider" as you put it, sorry. trying to say that you only required 5 buttons for WoW is ****ing hilarious.

    at least present believable information if you're going to try and BS on a game forum.
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  15. #15
    RIFT Guide Writer TheGrinnz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForumFritz View Post
    i do agree that it seems silly to have multiple variations of the same thing. ie one hot that heals more over time, one that heals less over time. -just as an example before someone gets uptight. these types of things do exist on some souls.
    Not for HoTs other than Warden which I discussed in my last post. A case could be made for DoTs but that's an element of DPS balance and it's also pretty much the whole point of Warlock. Any abilities that actually have a needless duplicate are usually like Ward of Fire vs Ward of Flame, where one is available low in the tree and the better version requires a high point investment in the tree. This could simply be replaced by a talent upgrading that low point ability of course, which has been suggested at times. But it's functionally identical to just dragging the low point ability off your bar once you get the higher one.
    Last edited by TheGrinnz; 07-11-2013 at 12:03 PM.

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