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Thread: Purifier talk

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGrinnz View Post
    Sentinel and Chloromancer.

    At least, if you're actually talking about main tank healing, not 5-man healing. Puri and Defiler are both capable of healing most experts, but when the tank takes three 40k hits all they are contributing is damage buffer.

    If the tank dies without the "damage buffer" then why does the Chloromancer or Sentinel get the credit as the 'main tank healer' ? Point is that there's just healers, the 'throughput' advantage if there is one isn't ever really required for anything in the game. At least it seems that way to me, there's very few encounters in the game where you might say "oh geez purifier healer just doesn't cut it for this particular purpose, we gotta use Sentinel instead", with Chloromancer also being more versatile and providing more utility than Sentinel that means... no Sentinels in raids.

    Also you're mention of 6 cooldowns ehhh, it's a tricky one and doesn't really factor in things like latent blaze or that flashover in combination with things like ward of scorching becomes pretty comparable to stuff like fullness of life etc.
    Last edited by Malark; 03-13-2013 at 07:54 AM.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGrinnz View Post
    If Purifier was a better tank healer (like it was before) then Sentinel would be completely useless (like it was before). Shielding is categorically better than healing if you can achieve the same throughput.
    But right now the situation is that Sentinel is the better tank healer and Purifier is completely useless. (outside of shield spam)

    Why is it bad if Purifier is slightly better than Sent, but OK if Sent is better than Puri?

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erethzium View Post
    Why is it bad if Purifier is slightly better than Sent, but OK if Sent is better than Puri?
    For what ? Seriously has anyone posting in this thread actually tried healing a tank with Purifier ?

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erethzium View Post
    But right now the situation is that Sentinel is the better tank healer and Purifier is completely useless. (outside of shield spam)

    Why is it bad if Purifier is slightly better than Sent, but OK if Sent is better than Puri?
    because purifier is still important for shielding. sent would have no use whatsoever. this has already been made clear in this thread....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malark View Post
    If the tank dies without the "damage buffer" then why does the Chloromancer or Sentinel get the credit as the 'main tank healer' ? Point is that there's just healers, the 'throughput' advantage if there is one isn't ever really required for anything in the game. At least it seems that way to me, there's very few encounters in the game where you might say "oh geez purifier healer just doesn't cut it for this particular purpose, we gotta use Sentinel instead", with Chloromancer also being more versatile and providing more utility than Sentinel that means... no Sentinels in raids..
    Without the damage buffer the tank would get oneshot. Without the chloro or sent the tank would get two-shot. They are both needed and one shows up better on the HPS meters. HPS meters are largely irrelevant, the measure of good healing is whether people die.

    Quote Originally Posted by Erethzium View Post
    But right now the situation is that Sentinel is the better tank healer and Purifier is completely useless. (outside of shield spam)

    Why is it bad if Purifier is slightly better than Sent, but OK if Sent is better than Puri?
    Purifier is not anywhere near useless. It can solo heal every expert dungeon encounter and is nearly a requirement in every 20-man raid encounter (if not a requirement, then substantially increases the leeway for people to screw up mechanics). If it could do substantial tank healing as well, Sentinel would be literally useless.
    Last edited by TheGrinnz; 03-13-2013 at 08:23 AM.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGrinnz;4187161Purifier is not anywhere near useless. It can solo heal every expert dungeon encounter and is nearly a requirement in every 20-man raid encounter (if not a requirement, then substantially increases the leeway for people to screw up mechanics). If it could do substantial tank healing as well, Sentinel would be [i
    literally[/i] useless.
    What I notice is that most of you measure Puri and Sentinel in regard to how useful it is in raids. Shouldn't it rather be measured in efficiency and "throughput"? I mean, it's not the Clerics fault that Trion failed to design boss encounters that actually require a Sentinel as a "must have" healer (and don't get me wrong, I do find that very sad), thus you shouldn't base your judgement upon raids and things like usefulness, but rather judge in regard to how strong a Purifier is in comparison to e.g. a Sentinel by already mentioned heal throughput and/or efficiency. And if you compare them like that, I just cannot see how a Purifier is supposed to even come close to being able to compete with a Sentinel or Warden ... Purifier is at best a supporter role and not a healer.
    Last edited by Fia; 03-13-2013 at 08:39 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fia View Post
    What I notice is that most of you measure Puri and Sentinel in regard to how useful it is in raids. Shouldn't it rather be measured in efficiency and "throughput"? I mean, it's not the Clerics fault that Trion failed to design boss encounters that actually require a Sentinel as a "must have" healer (and don't get me wrong, I do find that very sad), thus you shouldn't base your judgement upon raids and things like usefulness, but rather judge in regard to how strong a Purifier is in comparison to e.g. a Sentinel by already mentioned heal throughput and/or efficiency. And if you compare them like that, I just cannot see how a Purifier is supposed to even come close to being able to compete with a Sentinel or Warden ... Purifier is at best a supporter role and not a healer.
    Purifier is not even competing in the same role as Sentinel. It is required whether it competes in single-target healing or not. Sentinel would be useless if another soul filled its role, you can already see that by the fact that nobody uses Sentinels over tank-healing Chloros in raids. Adding another high-throughput tank healing soul to Clerics is a bad idea.

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    I think OP meant puri for pvp.


    Not lolpve.
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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Misun View Post
    I think OP meant puri for pvp.


    Not lolpve.
    Oh I know he did. But its role is the same in both and he's talking about changing that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGrinnz View Post
    Oh I know he did. But its role is the same in both and he's talking about changing that.
    Got to admit..it's pretty worthless. Some changes would be nice.
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  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fia View Post
    What I notice is that most of you measure Puri and Sentinel in regard to how useful it is in raids. Shouldn't it rather be measured in efficiency and "throughput"? I mean, it's not the Clerics fault that Trion failed to design boss encounters that actually require a Sentinel as a "must have" healer (and don't get me wrong, I do find that very sad), thus you shouldn't base your judgement upon raids and things like usefulness, but rather judge in regard to how strong a Purifier is in comparison to e.g. a Sentinel by already mentioned heal throughput and/or efficiency. And if you compare them like that, I just cannot see how a Purifier is supposed to even come close to being able to compete with a Sentinel or Warden ... Purifier is at best a supporter role and not a healer.
    Ya I find it a little sad that there's pretty much 1 healing setup, then add 1 healer as necessary. Maybe it's just me, but it seemed like in classic we made a lot more healing adjustments based on which boss we were on.

    But on topic.... Ya puri is a shield bot in both pve and PvP. So make a macro and spam away.
    Last edited by Nooblet; 03-13-2013 at 08:59 AM.

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    I believe that it is Trion's mistake to think that souls need to be always differentiated by function and not only by play style. Warrior tanks have had to fight this ideology for 2 years now. It is not practical to have three tank souls that specialize in different types of damage, especially when confronted with the single tank souls in other callings. And it is neither a good idea to have such a deep differentiation in healing functionality in the cleric calling. There is a bit more leeway because there are more healers than tanks in a raid but the problem of balance still exists and of always having the right people in a raid who specialize in the right souls.

    Sentinel does not automatically become useless if Purifier becomes again what it is designed to do, to keep tanks alive and not just shielded. Tank healing has never been a single healer's job (or it shouldn't) and like Puri and Chloro complement each other well, Puri and Sentinel could complement each other well.

    Of course, Puri's shielding output should not reach Sentinel's healing output. Puri's should keep a tank alive by a combination of healing and shielding as they used to with healing being the majority of the total output. One reason that (high) Sentinel wasn't used much pre 1.11 wasn't because Puri was too good at tank healing, it was because Sentinel was too slow and couldn't keep up with Chloro. And if that is still the case then it is an issue with Sentinel and not related to what Puri can or cannpt do.

    At the moment Puri's role is to make Warden's relatively useless (at least the Warden who would counter spikes in raid damage). Warden doesn't do the job of a high personal dps/spike damage healer nearly as well as icars did but that is a problem with Warden.

    I believe that some of cleric's healing souls need to be brought closer together in their functionality like they used to be. They should be distinguished by the method of keeping a tank and raid alive but not as much by their performance.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Perros_The_Second View Post
    I believe that it is Trion's mistake to think that souls need to be always differentiated by function and not only by play style. Warrior tanks have had to fight this ideology for 2 years now. It is not practical to have three tank souls that specialize in different types of damage, especially when confronted with the single tank souls in other callings. And it is neither a good idea to have such a deep differentiation in healing functionality in the cleric calling. There is a bit more leeway because there are more healers than tanks in a raid but the problem of balance still exists and of always having the right people in a raid who specialize in the right souls.

    Sentinel does not automatically become useless if Purifier becomes again what it is designed to do, to keep tanks alive and not just shielded. Tank healing has never been a single healer's job (or it shouldn't) and like Puri and Chloro complement each other well, Puri and Sentinel could complement each other well.

    Of course, Puri's shielding output should not reach Sentinel's healing output. Puri's should keep a tank alive by a combination of healing and shielding as they used to with healing being the majority of the total output. One reason that (high) Sentinel wasn't used much pre 1.11 wasn't because Puri was too good at tank healing, it was because Sentinel was too slow and couldn't keep up with Chloro. And if that is still the case then it is an issue with Sentinel and not related to what Puri can or cannpt do.

    At the moment Puri's role is to make Warden's relatively useless (at least the Warden who would counter spikes in raid damage). Warden doesn't do the job of a high personal dps/spike damage healer nearly as well as icars did but that is a problem with Warden.

    I believe that some of cleric's healing souls need to be brought closer together in their functionality like they used to be. They should be distinguished by the method of keeping a tank and raid alive but not as much by their performance.
    High Sentinel wasn't used pre-1.11 for a variety of reasons, including: the top-tier talents weren't worth much, hybrids were better, and Puri was better.

    Warden will also never be useless as long as raid damage comes more often than once every 10 seconds (which is a lot of fights). But yes I have said for a long time that Warden should do about double the DPS it's doing now.

    But no, if Puri could tank heal like it could before, I doubt many, if any raiding clerics would carry Sentinel. It's already rarely used because Chloro can do its role better, do we really need Puri to as well?

    Sure it's not very useful in PvP right now. How can we make it useful in PvP without changing its role in PvE?
    Last edited by TheGrinnz; 03-13-2013 at 09:38 AM.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGrinnz View Post
    But no, if Puri could tank heal like it could before, I doubt many, if any raiding clerics would carry Sentinel. It's already rarely used because Chloro can do its role better, do we really need Puri to as well?
    I find this odd because many clerics played Sentinel (hybrids) in raids when Puri was a strong tank healer, at least in the raids that I participated in. I would even think that Sent based builds were more popular in raids than they are now. This is a problem with Sentinel and cleric healing hybrids and can't be blamed on Purifier. Of course I am only seeing a small fraction of the Rift population (and not the hardcore) but this was my impression at least.

    Of course, there was no reason to go high Sent but that didn't have anything to do with Puri doing too good of a job, there was just more to be gained by taking lower point abilities in Icar or Warden (or occasionally Puri). Sent Ward or Senticar were excellent all round healers and could help with both tank healing and raid damage spikes. There was always a spot for them, especially in 10mans. There is no law written down anywhere that says that a high Sent couldn't play this role. They can't at the moment but that is another thing.
    Last edited by Perros_The_Second; 03-13-2013 at 09:53 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Perros_The_Second View Post
    I find this odd because many clerics played Sentinel (hybrids) in raids when Puri was a strong tank healer, at least in the raids that I participated in. I would even think that Sent based builds were more popular in raids than they are now. This is a problem with Sentinel and cleric healing hybrids and can't be blamed on Purifier. Of course I am only seeing a small fraction of the Rift population (and not the hardcore) but this was my impression at least.

    Of course, there was no reason to go high Sent but that didn't have anything to do with Puri doing too good of a job, there was just more to be gained by taking lower point abilities in Icar or Warden (or occasionally Puri). Sent Ward or Senticar were excellent all round healers and could help with both tank healing and raid damage spikes. There was always a spot for them, especially in 10mans. There is no law written down anywhere that says that a high Sent couldn't play this role. They can't at the moment but that is another thing.
    Maybe in T1 raids and experts but I did not see any Sent hybrid other than Puri/Sent in hammerknell and above, save a few die-hard wardens who would have been better served going Senticar. And yes Senticar much like the other icar variants was valued for its insane raid healing, but it could not cover tank healing in pretty much any fights while on the gear level of the raid. More importantly (for ID in particular) it could not deal with tank damage spikes like Puri and Puri/Sent could.
    Last edited by TheGrinnz; 03-13-2013 at 09:57 AM.

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