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Thread: Cleric Tank Stat-prioritization

  1. #16
    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fufa View Post
    I'm hugely pro eHP and push that on anyone that asks for tanking advice, but I can't support calling avoidance irrelevant. There's ALWAYS a point where a certain amount of avoidance is worth more than another point in Endurance. Otherwise all us tanks would be running around in off role essences for 1 more point of endurance.
    Except that DPS essences have less endurance than tank essences. Otherwise, you're right-- we would be.

    In order for avoidance to outweigh endurance, it would have to become reliable in some way (like the way that block capping worked in pre-MoP WoW). That's not possible in Rift, therefore it can't be worth more. Avoidance and effective health fulfill fundamentally different jobs. They can't be weighted or numerically compared. All you can do is look at the situations that kill you and determine what stats will help. And in the high burst, high healer output scenarios we see in Storm Legion, the answer is always effective health.

  2. #17
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    Not to side-track the thread, but it was off-handedly mentioned a couple of times that you shoot for X,Y,Z after you've achieved the toughness cap and hit cap. I know there's the minimum to get into experts at all... What are the cap numbers when we should start re-prioritizing to endurance and block?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jagannath View Post
    Not to side-track the thread, but it was off-handedly mentioned a couple of times that you shoot for X,Y,Z after you've achieved the toughness cap and hit cap. I know there's the minimum to get into experts at all... What are the cap numbers when we should start re-prioritizing to endurance and block?
    For toughness, 300 is the cap for experts, 400 for T1 raids, 500 for the 10 man that's coming soon. There is only ever one reason to go above this toughness number; when a boss has a toughness debuff (which is usually some kind of tank swap mechanic anyway). Otherwise extra toughness is completely irrelevant.

    For hit, it's the same 300/400/500 number, except it is affected by the level difference between you and the mob. Since enemies in raids are 2 levels above you, you want to be at 321/421/521 to ensure you never miss/are resisted.

    Getting these stats to max is pretty important but as long as you are close to the cap then you can start focusing on DPS or tanking stats -- it isn't like you will constantly miss with 350 hit in FT (but throw some runes on)
    Last edited by TheGrinnz; 03-11-2013 at 09:03 AM.

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    RIFT Guide Writer bombasy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGrinnz View Post
    Getting these stats to max is pretty important but as long as you are close to the cap then you can start focusing on DPS or tanking stats -- it isn't like you will constantly miss with 350 hit in FT (but throw some runes on)
    Tanks can't really afford to miss, so you want to be as close to the cap (420 for FT) as possible.
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  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by bombasy View Post
    Tanks can't really afford to miss, so you want to be as close to the cap (420 for FT) as possible.
    Nor interrupters or other special groups. But for the run of the mill DPSer it's not necessarily required.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muspel View Post
    Except that DPS essences have less endurance than tank essences. Otherwise, you're right-- we would be.

    In order for avoidance to outweigh endurance, it would have to become reliable in some way (like the way that block capping worked in pre-MoP WoW). That's not possible in Rift, therefore it can't be worth more. Avoidance and effective health fulfill fundamentally different jobs. They can't be weighted or numerically compared. All you can do is look at the situations that kill you and determine what stats will help. And in the high burst, high healer output scenarios we see in Storm Legion, the answer is always effective health.
    If I switch over to a straight eHP rating for ordering essences within Bowler's spread sheet, I pick up 2 dps essences in the top 6. That's not including warrior/rogue essences, so it could theoretically be more. It could and probably would include warrior/rogue tank essences. I'd have to actually sit down and compare engines, but in the comparison weighted heaviest to endurance you're talking 9 endurance for 133+ block 43+ parry and 30 dodge. The block and parry portion is before including the %wis boost.

    Going off role to warrior or rogue tank essences would probably net less of a loss in avoidance per endurance, so the question is are you currently geared up or would gear up with a Fortified Galestone for your tanking engine as a rogue? Is there any point at which the sheer amount of avoidance would outweigh 1 endurance to you?

    You're right that avoidance and eHP fulfill fundamentally different jobs. eHP lets you survive the worst case scenario, avoidance makes the worst case scenario happen less often. The more often the worst case scenarios happen, the more often the raid has to compensate with cooldowns/high mana burst heals/whatever.

    I could easily reverse your stance and state that once you have enough eHP to survive the absolute worst case scenario then Endurance ceases to matter and you should just go straight for avoidance and mitigation. But I wouldn't state that as I recognize that endurance, mitigation, and avoidance all have an important part to play. They may not be equal in their parts, but that's what stat weightings are for.

    Though truly for 75+% of your gear choices this ends up being irrelevant, whether you're looking at eHP or aHP most of the bis end up being the same due to the itemization of the game.

  7. #22
    RIFT Guide Writer TheGrinnz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fufa View Post
    I could easily reverse your stance and state that once you have enough eHP to survive the absolute worst case scenario then Endurance ceases to matter and you should just go straight for avoidance and mitigation. But I wouldn't state that as I recognize that endurance, mitigation, and avoidance all have an important part to play. They may not be equal in their parts, but that's what stat weightings are for.

    Though truly for 75+% of your gear choices this ends up being irrelevant, whether you're looking at eHP or aHP most of the bis end up being the same due to the itemization of the game.
    The problem is (as you allude to) there is literally no comparison between the two methods, they are for fundamentally different situations. Any stat weighting between them is nothing more than an approximation to guide those who don't know what they are gearing for. For one fight avoidance is completely worthless, for another it accounts for 50% of the damage reduction, there is literally no way to weight them except for an individual raid encounter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGrinnz View Post
    The problem is (as you allude to) there is literally no comparison between the two methods, they are for fundamentally different situations. Any stat weighting between them is nothing more than an approximation to guide those who don't know what they are gearing for. For one fight avoidance is completely worthless, for another it accounts for 50% of the damage reduction, there is literally no way to weight them except for an individual raid encounter.
    I agree with this, if you're gearing for individual raid encounters then you'd benefit from collecting different gear sets to match the encounter like you would resist engines. But at this point you're talking about people in the top 3% of players, which I assume they know that they're gearing for a specific fight and not generically.

    If you're not building directly for a fight, then your best bet is to build for an overall set up. In this case I would recommend Endurance first, but I personally would not drop 15+ block for a point of endurance. The weights pulled from including avoidance already stick Endurance way over the top at aprox 4 wis/10 int/7block/10dodge/10parry/1end.

  9. #24
    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fufa View Post
    If I switch over to a straight eHP rating for ordering essences within Bowler's spread sheet, I pick up 2 dps essences in the top 6. That's not including warrior/rogue essences, so it could theoretically be more. It could and probably would include warrior/rogue tank essences. I'd have to actually sit down and compare engines, but in the comparison weighted heaviest to endurance you're talking 9 endurance for 133+ block 43+ parry and 30 dodge. The block and parry portion is before including the %wis boost.

    Going off role to warrior or rogue tank essences would probably net less of a loss in avoidance per endurance, so the question is are you currently geared up or would gear up with a Fortified Galestone for your tanking engine as a rogue? Is there any point at which the sheer amount of avoidance would outweigh 1 endurance to you?
    I'd argue that avoidance cannot outweigh endurance unless it helps with the worst-case scenario. Since this isn't possible in Rift, the answer is no.

    This is not to say that it's impossible to create a scenario where avoidance is valued over endurance-- for instance, a boss who did very low damage but also drastically reduced incoming healing would favor avoidance. So would an enemy that meleed for a billion damage (since no amount of endurance would let you survive a single hit). Unfortunately, there currently aren't any fights like that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Fufa View Post
    I could easily reverse your stance and state that once you have enough eHP to survive the absolute worst case scenario then Endurance ceases to matter and you should just go straight for avoidance and mitigation. But I wouldn't state that as I recognize that endurance, mitigation, and avoidance all have an important part to play. They may not be equal in their parts, but that's what stat weightings are for.

    Though truly for 75+% of your gear choices this ends up being irrelevant, whether you're looking at eHP or aHP most of the bis end up being the same due to the itemization of the game.
    Well, the thing is that it's not just about the absolute worst-case scenario (ie never avoiding a single hit throughout the fight, the boss does the maximum on every hit allowed by his damage variance, healers never crit, etc). It's about making sure that when things go badly, you're better able to survive it.
    Last edited by Muspel; 03-11-2013 at 11:07 AM.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muspel View Post
    I'd argue that avoidance cannot outweigh endurance unless it helps with the worst-case scenario. Since this isn't possible in Rift, the answer is no.
    I guess my point is that avoidance does help with the worst-case scenario by lessening the chance of it occurring. Granted, until you can survive the worst-case scenario all the avoidance in the world isn't going to comfort your raid when you get 1 shotted every 3 pulls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Muspel View Post
    Well, the thing is that it's not just about the absolute worst-case scenario (ie never avoiding a single hit throughout the fight, the boss does the maximum on every hit allowed by his damage variance, healers never crit, etc). It's about making sure that when things go badly, you're better able to survive it.
    If I'm understanding what you're saying then you mean that any additional eHP buffer over what you need to survive a one shot is helping you survive by extending the time healers have to get to you? If that's the case then that's not a single bit different than avoidance extending the time. Once you've survived the burst if you're dropping due to healers not pushing enough HPS into you to get you back up that is an avoidance problem, I believe you pointed out that yourself earlier(Or it's a healer problem =p).

    I'm just having an issue wrapping my head around the fact that you seem to be recommending 1 endurance over any amount of avoidance no matter how high. If I could hand you a rune that gave 200 deflect and a rune that gave 1 end to your seal and you'd rune the 1 end one?

  11. #26
    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fufa View Post
    I guess my point is that avoidance does help with the worst-case scenario by lessening the chance of it occurring. Granted, until you can survive the worst-case scenario all the avoidance in the world isn't going to comfort your raid when you get 1 shotted every 3 pulls.
    That's not helping you to survive the worst case scenario, that's reducing its frequency. You'll still die to it just as easily when it happens, which means you're less reliable compared to a tank with higher effective health.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fufa View Post
    If I'm understanding what you're saying then you mean that any additional eHP buffer over what you need to survive a one shot is helping you survive by extending the time healers have to get to you? If that's the case then that's not a single bit different than avoidance extending the time. Once you've survived the burst if you're dropping due to healers not pushing enough HPS into you to get you back up that is an avoidance problem, I believe you pointed out that yourself earlier(Or it's a healer problem =p).
    Even if you can't get to another "threshold" (getting enough health to survive another hit without any healing), endurance is still the best stat because it always reduces the amount of healing you need between hits.

    Let's say that a tank has twenty health and the boss melees for 19 damage. This means that he needs 19 healing after each swing or he dies. If he goes up to 25 health, then he can survive two hits with only 14 healing. Sure, he'll still need to be topped off at some point, but there's more slush room if the healers have to move or whatever.

    And so on. Higher effective health means that the tank requires less baby-sitting, because the healers can predict his/her minimum lifespan. With avoidance, that's all up in the air-- there's no way to know if the tank at 40% health is going to dodge the next hit or not, so if another hit will kill him, you heal him up anyways.

    In other games, when you have soak tanks alongside avoidance tanks, the net result is that the avoidance tanks just take a lot more overhealing, because if the healers stop healing them and they DON'T avoid a hit, there's a good chance the healers can't catch up. If you look at your combat log, you can see the same thing happening in Rift-- avoid a hit, and the healers will generally keep healing you anyways. Bosses hit too hard for them to be reacting after you take the damage, so they try to pre-empt it by having the heal land right as the boss swings.

    At the end of the day, tanking is about stability. You need to make sure that even when the stars align badly and all the RNG goes against you, you're still able to live. With boss damage being what it is, that means EH.

    I'm just having an issue wrapping my head around the fact that you seem to be recommending 1 endurance over any amount of avoidance no matter how high. If I could hand you a rune that gave 200 deflect and a rune that gave 1 end to your seal and you'd rune the 1 end one?
    Yes.
    Last edited by Muspel; 03-11-2013 at 12:15 PM.

  12. #27
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    I should have just asked you that question at the beginning, that's the disconnect. I'm not disagreeing with the value of additional eHP, nor the fact that point for point it's much better than avoidance.

    However if you can say with a straight face that you would give up 200 deflect for 1 endurance, then we've got wildly differing opinions that can not be reconciled on that point.

  13. #28
    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    I don't understand the value that you're placing on block and avoidance.

    The thing that you have to keep in mind is that the vast majority of boss spike damage is completely unavoidable. This means that not only is avoidance unreliable, it's also ineffective in the situations where survivability is most important.

    Avoidance is only useful for reducing DTPS and therefore healing required. This is great if you find that bosses are wearing you down, gradually bleeding out your health bar faster than your healers can repair it.

    You're not going to find a boss that does that. Tank attrition just doesn't happen, period. Healers can top tanks off in less than four seconds, and rather than gradually beating you down, bosses will splatter you all over the room in two second intervals.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muspel View Post
    The thing that you have to keep in mind is that the vast majority of boss spike damage is completely unavoidable. This means that not only is avoidance unreliable, it's also ineffective in the situations where survivability is most important.
    This sentence is really the crux of the argument; it doesn't matter what class it is, the simple fact is the way Trion has designed raid content for Storm Legion, in most cases, it doesn't matter if you've got a 0% or 100% block/dodge/parry chance. Once you've accepted this as the current situation, the logical leap is that 1 END > XXX other stat. About the only time you see avoidance is on trash or soloing; raid bosses pretty much ignore all avoidance mechanics.
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  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redius View Post
    This sentence is really the crux of the argument; it doesn't matter what class it is, the simple fact is the way Trion has designed raid content for Storm Legion, in most cases, it doesn't matter if you've got a 0% or 100% block/dodge/parry chance. Once you've accepted this as the current situation, the logical leap is that 1 END > XXX other stat. About the only time you see avoidance is on trash or soloing; raid bosses pretty much ignore all avoidance mechanics.
    To be fair, several bosses have a mean autoattack (and I'm not being facetious). But still the real dangerous attacks are typically not avoidable. And there are bosses with no avoidable or blockable attacks at all, or none of consequence at least. As I said before, the only way you are going to get a meaningful weighting is by taking into account one specific encounter, but it still would just be an approximation, because it's entirely RNG whether you get the benefit of the avoidance at all.
    Last edited by TheGrinnz; 03-11-2013 at 01:04 PM.

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