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Thread: Any chance we can replace crit power with....

  1. #1
    Plane Walker Scarybadlady's Avatar
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    Default Any chance we can replace crit power with....

    Haste?

    Just a thought. I know as a healer primarily and at these gear levels id rather be able to get me some haste to lower the gcd without talents and help regen maybe add a tick to our hots and lower sheild burnout cd.

    Im all happy for the extra itemization that trion has introduced. I just dont see how only one more stat acheives a good mix. If we are gonna have to make a choice on stats it should be more then crit vs crit power since crit power imo is a waste until our crit is at minimum 30%. I even feel talents in dps trees should get same makeover instead of putting 3 points in armor pen it be better to have to choose between ap and a armor pen stat. It be a nice balance all around.
    ...In for a penny in for a pound...

  2. #2
    Ascendant Primalthirst's Avatar
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    They aren't going to completely overhaul the combat system after just changing it.
    I can't guarantee they've thought long and hard about adding a Haste stat and decided against implementing it. The standard haste stat in games is practically worthless for non casters in Rift and tying resource generation to Haste like in WoW is a very complex process when there are so many possible specs in Rift.ni think it'd be a good stat to have but has problems with implementation. Armor Pen similarly has problems which is why it was removed in WoW.
    Nope.

  3. #3
    Plane Walker Scarybadlady's Avatar
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    I know the work is hard but one thing rift devs have proved is they don't mind being the hardest working devs in mmos. I just feel crit power was a easy way out when they wanted to add another layer to itemization.

    Something more versatile would have been better. Also haste itself like ARP could replace a lot of talents in both dips and caster trees.
    ...In for a penny in for a pound...

  4. #4
    Telaran
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    One of the bigger problems with the concept of 'haste' as it would work within the combat system of Rift is that auto-attack damage is so very minimal in Rift.

    In WoW(or FFX1, or EQ, or most previous MMO's that had a haste stat), auto attack damage was a significant chunk of any melee or physical ranged(marksman/ranger/hunter) classes damage. So while haste would do nothing for the instant cast 'special' attacks of a WoW rogue or hunter, it would vastly improve their auto attack damage. This allows haste to give benefit to both casters(reduced casting time) as well as melee/physical ranged(faster auto attacks = more auto attack DPS).

    In Rift, combat was designed such that auto attack's are such a small part of total damage to almost be insignificant. I assume they did this, as it is probably far far easier to balance all of the different possible damage specs between all the souls in all the callings of this game, if you can just balance it on the easier to predict and control damage values of 'special' attacks. If they had to factor in the theoretical possibilities of significant auto attack damage for melee classes, it would be much harder to balance when compared to WoW's more simplistic system of 9 specific classes with set talent options.

    In Rift, haste could be very beneficial to casters, while it would do next to nothing for any melee specs, unless they added something extra like an increased resource regen to the haste stat. Even then, that same increased regen would also benefit casters, which would still make the stat better for casters than melee.

    Although currently, most of the 'top' caster damage specs among all of the caster classes are down to a 1.5 sec cast time for their main spam nuke, which is the same as the GCD. So even then for haste to do much of anything, it would need to both effect cast time as well as reducing the GCD.

    All of this makes it so that haste is a far more complicated concept in Rift than it might be in other MMO's that have featured this type of stat.

    Edit: I know WoW now has 11 classes, with the addition of DK and the new Monk. I was just comparing it to what has always existed in WoW.
    Last edited by ottopaul; 01-01-2013 at 02:09 AM.

  5. #5
    Ascendant Primalthirst's Avatar
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    I meant to say they would have looked long and hard at implementing it and decided against it.

    Personally I'm a fan of Haste as a stat and would absolutely definitely like to see more stats in the game, weighting math is fun! But there has to be a clear advantage to introducing more stats and for Haste I don't quite see it in the current combat system.
    Nope.

  6. #6
    Champion of Telara Elric-merren's Avatar
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    I would lvoe to see more stats inn the game. although i myself would rather see a stat that is implimented towards allowing support roles to scale in their primary duty in the group. As really in many ways you treat a support role as a gimped dps with how you gear them, where as if you gave them a stat that actually allowed their abilties to scale with their gear, than they might be able to be made more intergral to all levels of play, as well as shift the trinity in to a quad group concept. Though i also think that the power of their buffs should scale to the size of their group to keep them useful, as well as wanted across all content.

  7. #7
    Telaran
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    Honestly, I actually love haste as a stat in MMO's. I like it far more than something like 'crit power'.

    I just don't see it working easily and fairly in Rift, unless they completely overhauled the combat system.

    I *DO* miss the concept of auto attack damage being significant for melee's. It's really what makes dual wield a thing worth having. In Rift, dual wield isn't actually effectively any different than using 1 weapon, since most of your damage is coming from special attacks which are either scaled entirely off of AP or SP, or have been designed to factor in weapon damage from either 1 big 2-hander or 2 1-handed weapons combined. I believe most warrior attacks currently work this way, so they are roughly equal whether using a 2-hander or dual wielding, as long as all stats are equal(which they often aren't, dual wielding generally yields more total stats, if at the same 'item level').

    But, as much as I would like auto attack to matter, I totally understand how it is a complex thing to balance around, and Rift is already insanely complex to balance, with the endlessly variable soul system. I remember both rogues and fury warriors in WoW had various periods during the games development where they put out far far more damage than the designers may have intended, if they were properly geared to enhance dual wielding auto attacks as much as possible. Stacking extra hit to compensate for WoW's dual wield -hit penalty, and then stacking lots of haste, could turn your auto attacks into a speed-flurry like a high powered blender.

  8. #8
    Official Rift Founding Fan Site Operator bctrainers's Avatar
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    Wink

    If this was to be added in for cleric healing, I would much rather see this as a passive in the VERY VERY low percentile of your GCD reduction for healing output only. Essentially, let's be _somewhat practical_ here.


    Let's say: I put ALL points into healing souls, my GCD on healing abilities would be reduced by 0.5 seconds. Effectively, putting my healing GCD's to 1.0 seconds rather 1.5 seconds.

    What is the "ouch" to this? Mana costs. The ability to spam healing abilities faster means you will have to micromanage your mana even more so.


    Now, let's say I put half of my points into healing and the rest into DPS (lol @ that thought). As for the mathematically inept; half of 76 is 38. My healing GCD's would be reduced by 0.25seconds. This would put my healing GCD's to 1.25 seconds rather 1.50 as it stands currently.



    I can see the idea I listed working in theory, but practical usage and the real-world implementation scares me.


    In PVP, you would have to tinker around with healing output reductions due to GCD changes. In PVE, the issue becomes this: Instant healing spells may become much more powerful than its castable counterpart.
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  9. #9
    Plane Walker Scarybadlady's Avatar
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    I'm pretty sure in a teir or two crit power will see a major nerf. Right now while you can only have a low amount it is too strong point for point but you don't see it when playing since it is barely there. 200 crit power gives 5% bonus on my toon meanwhile I need 2k spell crit to reach around 14% crit. If our gear scales to where we have 30% crit and crit power adds the same scaling it'll surpass crits value by a ton point for point. A dps with 40%\50% crit and say 1500\2k crit power will be getting a huge bonus on every crit making dps(already too high) out of control it'll be impossible to keep players up when being focused. We need to help healing out since we're wasting itemization on hit (which I agree is nice to have when swapping spec) to allow that hit when using a healing soul to turn it into another stat. That's why I'd like to see a more broad itemization for all classes so sooner or later you have to make a choice on how you will gear losing one stat for another.

    I do agree we can't get rid of crit power entirely but it be nice to give healers (clerics in my situation) another stat to help mix things up a bit. Something to combat a dps with a lower gcd attacking while we can't cast back to heal in the same gcd.
    ...In for a penny in for a pound...

  10. #10
    Plane Touched
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    Yes please. Although at the moment healers don't seem to need that much itemization to perform well. Maybe next tier of raiding would be a good time to implement this?

  11. #11
    Plane Touched starg's Avatar
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    The haste would be the worst stats possible, remember, we have a lot of instant, and the GCD would still be there, or maybe you mean a stat that reduce the GCD ? even a worse idea. The is good for games where the attack/spell animation is what make the speed of your attack and your GCD, in rift, this is not the case.

    Also, we wont need haste, we have cooldown, which are there to cover everything that might happen.

  12. #12
    Sword of Telara Atropus's Avatar
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    Yeah, even though I was a huge fan of Coercer in EQ2, I couldn't see Haste working here in Rift. There's very little parity between its benefits for melee vs casters, and even in regards to casters, you are more limited by GCD than anything.

    If they made Haste lower GCD, then they'd need to either
    a) remove the 1 second GCD from Rogues, then retune and rebalance all of their skills, and change the way their combo points work.
    or
    b) add more Energy managing abilities to compensate for < 1 second GCD.

    On top of that, it would be even worse for Warriors in specs that give 1 second GCD for Energy management. All told, it's a nice dream, but one that comes with basically a revamp to everything in game, which is more than likely a pipe dream.

  13. #13
    Champion of Telara Elric-merren's Avatar
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    I could see something like efficiency, that would lower the cost of using abilities, while also improving your own regen-rates, which could help those speccs that have really bad mana/energy issues too.

  14. #14
    Soulwalker
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    Please dear god (or whatever) let us be free from haste and ArP! Not only are they fairly boring stats to gear up, there is the problem of rampant scaling with increased content.

    When haste was introduced in WoW it was pretty much worthless unless you accumulated a total ****load of it. As a warlock i needed so much haste to decrease cast time with 0.1 second that you couldn't even aim for it. You just took the haste that came with your upgrades and in the beginning it didn't do anything for global CD so dotters and other instants didn't benefit at all. Also it only benefits if you cast the spells pretty much back-to-back so you get that many more spells cast during the total encounter, or if the individual reduction actually meant you get that one spell off before an interrupt/movement/whatever.

    As a rogue, sure it was effective in the sense that it improved your overall damage even with lower levels of haste since autoattack was a huge % of your total damage output. Ponder that for a moment - a stat that improves your AUTOattacks to the degree that it improves your dps way more efficiently than your actual abilities. Fun times...

    As to ArP / spell penetration, well that was actually a pretty fun stat. For a while. It seemed boring at first, but scaled very fast. Due to DR on armor it didn't take all that much to reduce clothies to 0 armor when combined with expose/sunder.
    Sure, casters got spell penetration as their version but that had equal effect on all adversaries since nobody had actual resistances anyway, while ArP could easily make melee horribly overpowered versus casters (not talking druids or paladins, they never die anyhow ;)

  15. #15
    Rift Chaser Sikph's Avatar
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    I have to point out here that actual crit chance is a lot higher than the stat screen suggests. The stat screen only shows your base crit and +crit chance buffs. It doesn't show crit chance buffs for damaging spells, specific spells or skills like Fanaticism.

    In a raid, all the Inquisitors I play with are doing critical damage in over 40% of their attacks. Despite our tooltips saying around 18-20%. Shaman tends to be just below in the 30-40 range. Those stacking CP are getting huge boosts to their DPS from this. The start of a fight will have Inquisitors bursting 20k single target. Raid buffed I have about 640 crit power which is around 21-22% additional damage on 40% of my hits.

    It's unfortunate that most people don't realise the limits of the stat screen, and Trion keeps changing it so it's never fully clear. You need to use third-party parsing addons to see what is really going on.

    The general consensus on Cleric DPS gear is to stack SP as much as possible. Build a full Wis/Int/CP based source machine or half CP, half SP. Any gear you pick up that has double the CP to SP is probably worth using. Do not bother with Spell Crit gear at all, because even with a few pieces you're only going to get 1-2% more crit chance, which you'd usually just reach through Intelligence alone. Raid buffs make up the bulk of your critical potential so it's better to stack SP and CP.

    Oh and on-topic. Haste is a nice idea, but it's far from necessary. It would require a ton of work and not really improve much to make it worthwhile. Like someone said, Rift has diverse specs in place of diverse gear. If you want to attack quickly, Furious Assault in Shaman. That 's some crazy fun stuff.

    Hope this helps.
    Last edited by Sikph; 01-03-2013 at 07:55 AM.

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