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Thread: Why did Trion destroy clerics? (pvp)

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    Ascendant Pesmergia's Avatar
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    Default Why did Trion destroy clerics? (pvp)

    They made every attempt they could, to utterly gut the healing side of the cleric class. They remove the key ability that allowed clerics to somewhat keep up with the ridiculous damage flying around in PvP, serendipity.

    So now we are forced to hard cast 2 second HIs. We no longer have a method of a sustainable spammable AoE heal, that can somewhat keep up with damage. They nerf Healing Communion to 5 targets healed, and buff the warden cataract to 10 people, and force us to hard cast 2 second cataracts that heal 10 people for 1.5k while 2 sabs can unload enough damage to nearly wipe a raid in 3 seconds.

    Healing Floods are healing CRITS for 160ish in PvP every 2 seconds at level 60, is this a joke? Just delete the spell, heck, in full heal spec, with 400 PA, my damage spells are hitting harder than some of my HEALING spells.

    So Trion, uh, are you TRYING to destroy your game? Delete the freakin' spell like you deleted HEALING CURRENT, yet another staple cleric ability, you just decide to up and remove, when it was a solid foundation for healing in PvP along with serendipity.

    I can manage healing in PvP, but it just isn't fun, nor very effective unless you stack healers. Hit a button, wait 2 seconds, lalalala o wait yay, not interrupted. Hit button, wait 2 seconds, interrupted, is this your idea of fun PvP? While all these dps classes can unload instant damage without buildup on off-global buffs?

    Who at your company is making these decisions here? I mean seriously, they are doing the absolute worst job at "balance" I have ever seen in any MMO company in gaming history, including taking into consideration WoWs horrid balance, I'm sorry, but Trion just takes the cake.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pesmergia View Post
    They made every attempt they could, to utterly gut the healing side of the cleric class. They remove the key ability that allowed clerics to somewhat keep up with the ridiculous damage flying around in PvP, serendipity.

    So now we are forced to hard cast 2 second HIs. We no longer have a method of a sustainable spammable AoE heal, that can somewhat keep up with damage. They nerf Healing Communion to 5 targets healed, and buff the warden cataract to 10 people, and force us to hard cast 2 second cataracts that heal 10 people for 1.5k while 2 sabs can unload enough damage to nearly wipe a raid in 3 seconds.

    Healing Floods are healing CRITS for 160ish in PvP every 2 seconds at level 60, is this a joke? Just delete the spell, heck, in full heal spec, with 400 PA, my damage spells are hitting harder than some of my HEALING spells.

    So Trion, uh, are you TRYING to destroy your game? Delete the freakin' spell like you deleted HEALING CURRENT, yet another staple cleric ability, you just decide to up and remove, when it was a solid foundation for healing in PvP along with serendipity.

    I can manage healing in PvP, but it just isn't fun, nor very effective unless you stack healers. Hit a button, wait 2 seconds, lalalala o wait yay, not interrupted. Hit button, wait 2 seconds, interrupted, is this your idea of fun PvP? While all these dps classes can unload instant damage without buildup on off-global buffs?

    Who at your company is making these decisions here? I mean seriously, they are doing the absolute worst job at "balance" I have ever seen in any MMO company in gaming history, including taking into consideration WoWs horrid balance, I'm sorry, but Trion just takes the cake.
    I'm not 60 yet, but on my server, there's such an over abundance of healers in the higher bracket that it's not even funny... And with a sent build, you can rotate cooldowns for quite awhile, I'd think. Fullness of Life, TtL+CI, Healer's Haste, Healer's Covenant, Vigilance, Nyol's Hope, Tidal Surge if you have warden. And then every two minutes you can reset them all with renewed altruism. Granted, it is possible that none of these are up, and vigilance is kinda meh sometimes, but still. I feel like there's too much healing sometimes...

    Stack two wardens with a defiler linking them, or a sent to spot heal them. Watch no one die ever. EDIT: I'm not actually complaining about it, I LOVE heal fests. Especially when there's a lot of AE damage going on. Even though those huge numbers are meaningless, it's still fun to see them.
    Last edited by Jeorge; 12-26-2012 at 05:33 PM.

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    Ascendant Flashmemory's Avatar
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    As a cleric who likes to sometimes dps I say healing is bit over tuned ATM. I do abuse it but still it gets boring. Defiler is fun though.

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    Ascendant BishopX's Avatar
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    so what you are saying is... those of us who are use to easy mode insta heals and overpowered procs.. cant adapt but those of us who were good BEFORE the changes are still good now and have adapted?

    Ive always used cast time heals, can i play about the same as I did before
    but i admit i did have the OP serendipity + ripple LOL heal spec before for then I got mad.
    but ya purifier works for me now a bit better than it did before, so I cant co sign on you with this here.
    and i cant main heal an entire raid as a justicar now either... thank god.
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    Plane Touched
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    Not considering the current bug, I find healing souls quite well balanced. They all have purpose, advantages and drawbacks, and none is overpower/the-way-to-go. One thing that show that it is well balanced is that I believe two different healing spec clerics are better suited than two of the same spec. Probably purifier is a bit lacking, but not that much.

    However I think healing (pre-bug) is a bit low compared to DPS, and the TTK is too low. Rigth now, playing bugged defiler, I spend my time instantly healing people from like 10% to 100%. They drop too fast. (but also it is quite fun, because you have to be super reactive)

    I am somewhat worried for the situation when the bug will be fixed (but the bug it self has to be fixed has sentinel or puri have no real value compared to bugged defiler)

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    Sword of Telara Shibi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailis View Post
    However I think healing (pre-bug) is a bit low compared to DPS, and the TTK is too low. Rigth now, playing bugged defiler, I spend my time instantly healing people from like 10% to 100%. They drop too fast. (but also it is quite fun, because you have to be super reactive)

    I am somewhat worried for the situation when the bug will be fixed (but the bug it self has to be fixed has sentinel or puri have no real value compared to bugged defiler)
    This is a fun part of the reaction in WF/CQ for me as a defiler too.

    For what it's not worth, my 2 silvers worth of waffle.

    For me the question is more that right now the defiler is working as a viable soul - unintentionally maybe - apart from a few smaller issues, some solvable with gadgets, some only worrying in the PvE environment.

    We are not as powerful as the chloro by any means, currently a chloro runs rings around us in a one on one healing in WF match. Some of that is the AOE spreading the bug as opposed to our ST bug.

    My fear is always the precast of stacks of FG onto your team to make easy mode healing, but targetted spike damage is there to take your mind of less valuable players and focus on people like your warladins who we really should be ensuring stay up as long as possible as they jump up to the front line. The mana cost is also immense if you just spam it. It's not more than 30 seconds if spam like that until you are OOM and your team stops dropping

    Warladdins also bring their own problem into play that you sometimes need to move towards the front a little more too, so draw the MM fire. >.<

    In an ideal match (impossible, but something I keep in mind) I still see that we are main tank, single target healers to keep the warladins up as the puri keeps the whole team in shields, the warden adds some aoe goodness and the sentinel does big top ups on mages an the like.

    We would need that bug formally turned into a feature, maybe with a larger mana cost to keep doing warladin healing, that spike damage is just phenomenal if any of you watch them take the damage on your meters.

    But, there does have to be interchangeability so after chloro comes down to proper healing and not this overhealing madness they have, to defiler level initially, then bring puris up to defiler and then adjust all up and down until the optimal level is reached.

    There always needs to be someone front line to draw that fire and move in deep if possible to take out their blues. If it's not warladin it will be another warrior build. Defilers are their healers over the mages and marksmen clustered up nice and tight for a sab to carpet bomb.

    inb4 people saying "good, nerf defilers hard, I hate warladins".
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    Ascendant BishopX's Avatar
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    whoooa there kemosavi... you went a bit overboard there.
    i dont think anyone will agree with you that healing to damage is BALANCED.

    hell we arent even balanced compared to OURSELVES.. much less other classes.

    when you play purifier do you keep every tank in the front line from dying?
    but when you an inquisitor do you kill every noob warrior that over extends in a blink of an eye (yes)
    do you get more kills with your 1 minute channeled damagespell (nyssers rebuke) than you get saviors with your 1 minute CD channeled HEAl spell?

    can you change the game more if you go cabbalist for the aoe, or if you go warden ... for the AoE?

    when my healing with a bit of aoe but heavily based on cooldowns HEALER sentinel... gets jumped by a single target, with a little bit of aoe, based on cooldowns melee damage dealer in SHAMAN... i know i will die 9/10 of the time.


    so if we arent even completely balanced against our own SELVES, and shaman and cab arent even OP... whats that to say for how healing is compared to SAB and tempest?
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    Sword of Telara Shibi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BishopX View Post
    whoooa there kemosavi... you went a bit overboard there.


    Sorry.
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    Ascendant Eughe's Avatar
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    Shouldn't be having much problems playing full senti or warden atm. If you are, probably need to practice more of use defiler since they are more mobile than current wardens.


    Healing is fairly fine. It's damage is the problem.

  10. #10
    Plane Walker Scarybadlady's Avatar
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    I think the biggest problem is the size of WF groups and Conquest. It makes healing seem extremely weak. In the smaller WF's you see healing actually working and helping the group because in a 10v10 if u have 2 to 3 healers they can keep up with the damage. Now go to 15v15 WF's or Conquest you dont have the necessary amount of healers to combat the amount of dps. 2 to 3 healers in a 15v15 or Conuest group does nothing and it basically comes down to whos got the most dps over anything else. Pvp is really becoming a zerg fest TTK is way too low and when TTK is too low PVP is not fun. Everyone has more fun when they can atleast get thru a rotation before dying its not fun when in a couple GCD ur dead.

    Either they need to find a way to evenly distiribute healers to match group size, buff healing atleast by 30% or town down dps by the same margin. Its becoming a little annoying not being able to keep players or even ourselves up for more then a few seconds. Even the best healers in the game ive seen go down ridiculously fast in CQ and WF's.

    In a 10 man raid u need 2 healers and a support in a 20 man 2x that if no a couple more support even. Now go to a WF and join a 15 man and have 2 healers it makes it impossible to help the group between CDs and thats only if you have them up and the dps has theirs not available. This zerg pvp style direction the game is going is annoying and not as fun as it could be.

    Im not saying a healer should be able to keep 10 people alive but a healer should be able to keep themselve up almost indefinately in a 1v1 situation where either they need to be outplayed or resource starved to kill and in a 2v2 or 3v3 situation actually be able to keep their group alive.

    This also will help the huge issue with melee being very sub par in pvp in group situations not in 1v1 where they do ok to very well. You nerf aoe healing and in eturn it hurt melee dps aswell in groups.

    Just be nice if they communicated with the direction they are making pvp go in the game. Right now its just the biggest zerg wins. Is there a way for them to atleast adjut healing in conquest and wf's based on healers to group size? Say in a 10v10 if there is 1 healer lower the halingpenalty but a % so it makes up for the lack of healing the group has and adjust accordingly based on group size? Idk but i can definately see a very weak pvp system when 2 out of the 3 rolls (healing/tanking) is pretty much not worth playing. I have been in groups where u have 3 to 4 healers an support in a 15v15 WF and its fun but the problem is thats rare and its rare because healing isnt a fun roll to play right now. If your gonna ue for pvp and die in under 5 seconds well then might aswell be dps to actually inflict pain back at the enemy. Healers are sittng ducks right now and unless lesft completely alone cant help the group at all once focused they die too fast.

    Its not a class issue its a game issue with healing in general their is no healer thats fun to play regardless of how great they are they will only shine when in a premade with the right amount of support, peels, etc while dps are able to do their dps even if solo qued. Healers should have the same priveleg and not have to que with an entire group on vent to perform their role
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    Sword of Telara Shibi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scarybadlady View Post
    Im not saying a healer should be able to keep 10 people alive but a healer should be able to keep themselve up almost indefinately in a 1v1 situation
    Just pulling out that one little quote, sorry for dishonouring your post which I mostly agree to.

    PvP is rock-scissors-paper. Every class, every build must have a nemesis. We should be able to keep ourselves up indefinitely against most people but never against souls with multiple fast interrupts and stuns.

    We pretty much always need to be kept vulnerable to rogues or else the RPS game is messed up.
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    Ascendant Eughe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shibi View Post
    PvP is rock-scissors-paper. Every class, every build must have a nemesis. We should be able to keep ourselves up indefinitely against most people but never against souls with multiple fast interrupts and stuns.

    Which is no soul. No soul doing anything substantial.

    And last I checked, doms and VKs exists.

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    Plane Walker Scarybadlady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shibi View Post
    Just pulling out that one little quote, sorry for dishonouring your post which I mostly agree to.

    PvP is rock-scissors-paper. Every class, every build must have a nemesis. We should be able to keep ourselves up indefinitely against most people but never against souls with multiple fast interrupts and stuns.

    We pretty much always need to be kept vulnerable to rogues or else the RPS game is messed up.
    When i reread that part i even see it as maybe too much but there should be a balance there maybe not indefinetly but skill has to come in play sooner or later to make the game fun. Right now healing is not fun and for anyone returning that left before SL its a huge difference compared to before its just too drastic. Again i agree indefinetly isnt the way but if a healer cant kill a single dps then why should a single dps kill a healer? The dps souls atleast in the cleric trees outheal any dps i can do in my heal spec which is a issue that no matter what when faced in a 1v1 the only way to win as a healer is run away because u wont kill them at the least we should be able to live long enuff as to annoy the person and them stop attacking and move on. Pre SL u could atleast do decent dps back as a healer no mattr the class now u are just a training dummy.

    People should have to outplay their opponent not out CD them. As it is now dps doesnt even have to time cc to kill a healer just unload. A dps can blow all their cc when a healer is at 100% and still acheive the same outcome as if they saved it until the healer was a 30% and timed it for a kill.

    Cc isnt even important right now due to the amount of dps being done it just makes a healer able to heal and not live rather then stay cc'ed and not live. There has to be a balance and a game is always more fun when people get to use their abilities and be outplayed before they die then just be out CD'ed. It makes even the bolstering system useless. Why woul trion implement a system where it allows people to live longer because no one wants to die fast but then be made useless neway because dps is out of control. Its like trion knew in their testing pre launch that dps was going to be out of hand and without atleast bolstering people would just not pvp at all. I always say a game is more fun when people stay alive and time cc and coordinate and the match is won at the end my a small margin because people actually got a chance to play in the match then what we have now 99% of WFs and CQ is completely lopsided to the point where most matches are at 80% to 20% point wise at the end thats not balance thats a one sided game whre the only thing that matters is ur luck on the team u got on rathr then anything involving skill.

    Its like pre salary cap football the pvp right now u have dpswith such an advantage the rest of the souls are just there to take a beating. No one thinks football was better when 4 cities always won the super bowl because they had the advantage of deeper pockets and thats what dps has in pvp right now a lopsided advantage and the longer it goes the more dps and less tanks/healers u will see. Its already almost there i havent done a conquest since it came back where there were more then 2 to 3 healers for every 20 man group and mayb one or two tanks support thats way too many souls in a game with this many available not being used becaue they just cant perform. Again if a raid requires 8 to 10 of the 20 players to be a healer, support, tank then thats the margin pvp should have not even on the best days 5 of 20 players not being dps because thats balance. Pre SL there were more usable souls then there are now and more souls were added. Not only that 99% of the specs u run in pve are the same top pvp dps specs thats crazy to me that people dont even care about the untility talents bring because even 1 soul point is wasted if its not in a dps boosting talent.
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  14. #14
    Plane Touched
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scarybadlady View Post
    The dps souls atleast in the cleric trees outheal any dps i can do in my heal spec which is a issue
    For what I have experienced, this is not the case (pre bug), single healing specs HPS is close to single target DPS. As it should be.

    The problem is the low ttk or low HP pool. It makes bursty classes able to kill healer (and others) too easily, not because their overall DPS is too high, but because of the low HP pools and CDs, the DPS can kill the healer without him being able to react.

    Now if you have more than 1 competent players able to focus fire and "coordinate" burst and CCs, there is absolutely no counter to that.

    The problem is that if you increase the relative HP pools too much, then CD and burst becomes irrelevent, PVP becomes only a mathematical thing : which team has the highest overal throughput. With no skill (timing, team stuff, awarness) involved.

    So it is dificult to balance. But the real variable is the relative HP pool (that is why the pvp stat is directly related to it), and rigth know it is too low. PVP (and healer life) is much better in 50-59 bracket just because of that.

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    Plane Walker Scarybadlady's Avatar
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    Im fine with healing staying where it is. Its dps thats out of control. CC needs to be part of the reason a dps can kill a healer or any soul. Right now CC doesnt have to be used to kill another player just dps. This creates a FOTM zerg game which is what we have now there is no skill required.

    A kill happns by chipping away health while having your hp chipped away and using LoS an then timing ur cc, interpt, stun,etc at a point where u can then use ur cds correctly to land a kill. This does not exist currently the way pvp works. Right now a dps can run up to a healer and tank blow up the tank turn and blow up the healer withou having to cc or get one player out of range etc.

    Dps is too high thats just a fact. Now people can come say oh well L2P but their is no L2P and why does a healer have to L2P but a dps can smash their face on a keyboard and win. The skill level between a healer that has to do their job right which is keep people and themselves alive compared to a dps that has to do their job right by killing them is too loopsided the dps has to easy of a time currently and they have a easier game style way to easy compared to a healer or even tank.

    Above all else this huge CQ and large scale pvp where people just dont have fun healing or playing on the front lines makes the issue even more problematic. I havent done one CQ where a actual real battle took plce to capture a node everytime the dps heavy side blows up the other and u rez and run back. Then the way 80% of WFs are set up u have bottlenecks or areas fought over that players r funneled into a small area and with the nuetering of aoe healing but the buff to dps and massive aoe again shows the issue with the low TTK. Its just becoming annoying and i find either u have to stay in the shadows in a WF or CQ with a friend and hope u run into another small team to actually have a real pvp match or just follow a zerg.

    Idk zerg isnt fun to me its cool to kill people if ur on the bigger side but thats not pvp thats pve vs other players. I pvp because pve is mindless and the once u do a fight once it never changs u dont have to learn to react or feel out the opponent and right now pvp is the same with how low healing is compared to dps.

    Its not just clerics there are not any heal souls right now that can compete with the dps souls on a equal basis.
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