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Thread: Please fix Cleric healing

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    Telaran Stormvet's Avatar
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    Default Please fix Cleric healing

    To preface all this, in no way am I saying "nerf" anyone else. I simply advocate changes to Cleric heals so they become more seemingly useful for the main role clerics occupy in the fantasy RPG universe - healing.

    Neither am I asking for any sort of stellar increase in clerics' healing power per se - by that I mean I'm not asking that a given 10k heal be increased to 20k.

    Mostly this is about perception and, sadly, the HPS meter. This is why above I used the phrase "more seemingly useful" - to wit:

    In discussions with other players I've heard stuff like, "I'm skittish about cleric heals because my health gets low then bam! it's back up again. I use my tank cooldowns more often because I get nervous." Or min/max stuff like, "When I see someone over-healing it's just a waste of mana and/or a raid slot, and I'd opt for them to do something else."

    Except I picked a Cleric when Rift launched because I prefer the healer role, so doing something I'm not into doesn't really bode well for continued subscription consideration. My achievements and faction are on THIS toon, not some other calling under a re-roll.

    The reason for the above player statements has a lot to do with when and how Cleric heals land. I tend to use Sentinel for single-target heals, and Warden for group heals. With Sentinel the Healing Invocation is a deppressingly long 2s cast while a Mage doing the same job mostly DPS's the target and the resultant heals land willy-nilly wherever they're directing them in fast order. The end result healing may or may not be the same amount, but since the cleric's heals take forever to cast by the time those land it tends to be an over-heal (and thus a waste in some players' minds). Since HPS meters don't tend to present overheals as healing output done, Mage heals tend to look larger (or more effective) after combat ends and the totals are observed. The same holds true for a Warden's HoT's which tick off at, yes, the same agonizingly long 2s interval.

    This has little if anything to do with player skill - once a Sentinel or Warden player hits the button for either Healing Invocation or Healing Flood (for example) it's out of our hands - the design of the ability is then the delay while other things continue to happen in the fight. There's nothing we can do to hone our skill there, and no, I'm not rolling an arcane caster like a mage to do a cleric's job - heals. If I'd have wanted to do caster dps I would have rolled a mage way back when Rift launched.

    So what I'm suggesting is this - leave Mage/Chloro alone. Not asking for it to be nerfed. Instead, speed up cleric heals land time by make things like Healing invocation a 1s cast instead of 2s, and make Warden HoTs tick off every second. With those mechanics in place, then reduce the base heals of those spells by 10% to 25% (whichever you deem apprpopriate). This will result in an HPS meter boost for cleric heals and put them back in the HPS meter as a viable alternative for healing where they should be in the Fantasy RPG universe. Mages are for raw damage, or debuffing of the enemy, and if they do stray into the healing realm, for support heals, not main heals.

    I do appreciate the originality of the Calling / Role system unique to Rift and I applaud it, but please restore some semblence of traditional fantasy RPG expectation when it comes to the archetype of Cleric. Clerics, mainly, heal.
    Witch King to Harry Potter: "Your staff is brok... wait, is that a WAND? roflmao!"

  2. #2
    Sword of Telara
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    Reducing Healing Invocation to 1 second casting time is redundant. We have a 1.5 second GCD. If the tank is getting overhealed by so much that it is becoming unnecessary to cast every GCD; invest into Defiler. You could be providing solid DPS and great burst healing.

    Edit: P.S. Healing is not our job, and Damage or Support heals are not Mages. You're still thinking pre-Rift terms which doesn't fly around here. Think of each calling as a vessel in which you determine your possible roles in a group; with each individual soul providing those roles; not the calling themselves.
    Last edited by Anthony01; 12-23-2012 at 07:07 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Daglar
    Hey guys, there is a lot of speculation out there right now, I wanted to come out and say the following pretty definitively: There is no goal to make DPS clerics that DPS do less damage than other callings.
    Daglar; Lead Calling Designer~10/17/12

  3. #3
    Plane Touched Salazar666's Avatar
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    Chloros are pretty broken right now and is healing quite alot more than they are supposed to. There is supposed to be a fex coming soon. That said sentinel havent really been great in a raid envoirment for quite some time now.
    World first Maelforge! -World First Cyril kalmar! -World Second Murdantix! - World second Laethys!

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    Telaran Indria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormvet View Post
    In discussions with other players I've heard stuff like, "I'm skittish about cleric heals because my health gets low then bam! it's back up again. I use my tank cooldowns more often because I get nervous." Or min/max stuff like, "When I see someone over-healing it's just a waste of mana and/or a raid slot, and I'd opt for them to do something else."
    Tanks really need to start to trust healers, even in pug.

    IMO on Sentinel, full "Swift Plea" should reduce GCD of invocations by 0.5 sec rather than decresing the mana cost. That should help to get rid of the "slow healing" feeling.

    PS: I think when you get used to defiler healing, it is one of the best imo

  5. #5
    Sword of Telara Shibi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Indria View Post
    Tanks really need to start to trust healers, even in pug.

    IMO on Sentinel, full "Swift Plea" should reduce GCD of invocations by 0.5 sec rather than decresing the mana cost. That should help to get rid of the "slow healing" feeling.

    PS: I think when you get used to defiler healing, it is one of the best imo
    I am tired of tanks overruling my call for the support to switch to their support role. I am also tired of tanks printing out my HPS and saying "lift your game scrub" as if they would understand there is no overhealing.

    Investing heavily in Spell Crit has helped me a lot to defiler heal but I will always consider changing specs fight to fight is a bad thing that should be left in the raid environment, not brought into the 5 man environment. If one has to have Sentinal to group cleanse off a really hard ticking AOE debuff then in my eyes it's broken.

    I still see an AOE/Group cleanse is an essential healer tool for any and all healer souls.

    Defiler healing is wonderful, moreso now that we take less damage from stupid pug members and that the tank's link is 30%, but it's still no group cleanse, and that really pushes things beyond my envelope and often I think possibly other's.

    I still remain PvPing, doing normals and helping new players by mentoring down. Experts are impossible in SL still due to my stubbornness in not wanting to play a Sentinal.
    Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned.
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  6. #6
    Soulwalker
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    YES! Please fix Cleric healing!

    I'm sooo distraught about the current situation. I almost can't find a random group that wants a cleric-healer .. in the chat you always read "lfm expert - heal only mage"

    And don't tell me that I should run dungeons with my guild, that's not the problem. I wan't to be the cleric-healer I was before SL - not more and not less.

    And it doesn't help the big field of average players, that some outstandig good players tell us, that they have no problems with their healingrole. We "normal" players do have it!

    And please keep in mind that the most people who post in this forum are very active and outstandig players. The lower plays often don't post about their problems, they just leave the game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shibi View Post
    I am tired of tanks overruling my call for the support to switch to their support role. I am also tired of tanks printing out my HPS and saying "lift your game scrub" as if they would understand there is no overhealing.

    Investing heavily in Spell Crit has helped me a lot to defiler heal but I will always consider changing specs fight to fight is a bad thing that should be left in the raid environment, not brought into the 5 man environment. If one has to have Sentinal to group cleanse off a really hard ticking AOE debuff then in my eyes it's broken.

    I still see an AOE/Group cleanse is an essential healer tool for any and all healer souls.

    Defiler healing is wonderful, moreso now that we take less damage from stupid pug members and that the tank's link is 30%, but it's still no group cleanse, and that really pushes things beyond my envelope and often I think possibly other's.

    I still remain PvPing, doing normals and helping new players by mentoring down. Experts are impossible in SL still due to my stubbornness in not wanting to play a Sentinal.
    Every expert i have healed (6 maybe, i normally dps or support), has been as warden, either 48/28 sentinel or 61 warden/15sent. Dont think we ever wiped due to heals.

  8. #8
    Sword of Telara Shibi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stefe View Post
    Every expert i have healed (6 maybe, i normally dps or support), has been as warden, either 48/28 sentinel or 61 warden/15sent. Dont think we ever wiped due to heals.
    I'm glad you've had a better experience than me and have not experienced a beastmaster as support or tried to be a 61 defiler and found you were killed by people in your group standing in the bad stuff. (less likely to happen now, you have time to delink them and let them kill themselves) but cleanse is still my issue.

    Yes, I know, I'm stubborn because I want to play as a defiler.
    Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned.
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  9. #9
    Champion of Telara Elric-merren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikado1 View Post
    YES! Please fix Cleric healing!

    I'm sooo distraught about the current situation. I almost can't find a random group that wants a cleric-healer .. in the chat you always read "lfm expert - heal only mage"

    And don't tell me that I should run dungeons with my guild, that's not the problem. I wan't to be the cleric-healer I was before SL - not more and not less.

    And it doesn't help the big field of average players, that some outstandig good players tell us, that they have no problems with their healingrole. We "normal" players do have it!

    And please keep in mind that the most people who post in this forum are very active and outstandig players. The lower plays often don't post about their problems, they just leave the game.
    Theree is no fix for cleric-healing as it is about where it shoudl bem the issue is that chrolo is broken in their buffs allow them to heal for far too much than they are supposed to. This is being fixed though, which means mage-healers are going to be largely in the same boat as cleric healers with struggling in the dongeon based on gear they have. Buffing clerics now would make us having to eat a nerf affter they fix chrolo, as they would need to re-balance us to chrolo afterr the fix. This woould be an issue as that would mean you might be worse off than now if they over nerf like many games too. So wait till the chrolo fix happens, and then see where it stands.

    Also it is not the system that needs to change if you do not want to utilize the souls you can use, but want to gimp yourself by playing only one soul or such. Each healer should be able to gain a cleanse, but each soul should not have a cleanse, if two or three of the four healer souls have a cleanse that is easy to obtain than it is fine.
    Last edited by Elric-merren; 12-24-2012 at 03:39 AM.

  10. #10
    Sword of Telara Shibi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elric-merren View Post
    Also it is not the system that needs to change if you do not want to utilize the souls you can use, but want to gimp yourself by playing only one soul or such. Each healer should be able to gain a cleanse, but each soul should not have a cleanse, if two or three of the four healer souls have a cleanse that is easy to obtain than it is fine.
    Yes, I realise I am stubborn, but outside of the raid environment I don't think you should be forced to change specs per boss. Leave that for the raid environment. All healing souls should be able to complete all mechanics of experts is still my strong personal feeling.

    If that cuts me out of experts as a healer then so be it, however right now it seems it also cuts me out as support. I don't know why, maybe a bug. My hit is only 288, but a defiler doesn't need hit. Otherwise all my stats well and truly exceed the bar.
    Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned.
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  11. #11
    Champion of Telara Elric-merren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shibi View Post
    Yes, I realise I am stubborn, but outside of the raid environment I don't think you should be forced to change specs per boss. Leave that for the raid environment. All healing souls should be able to complete all mechanics of experts is still my strong personal feeling.

    If that cuts me out of experts as a healer then so be it, however right now it seems it also cuts me out as support. I don't know why, maybe a bug. My hit is only 288, but a defiler doesn't need hit. Otherwise all my stats well and truly exceed the bar.
    The soul system is about being flexible from fight to fight, boss to boss, and content to content. If you remove the need or desire to switch specs to make fight easier by gaining cleanses, other styles of heals, or utility, than you might as well get rid of the soul system an make it a standard class system. You are also talking about relatively new content, which means if you do not min/max an use optimum speccs than you are gimping yoruself, which is your choice, but far from bad design. Since it makes players actually learn and play several styles of a role, or learn how to deal with machanics in a dfferent fashion if they ddo not wish too. Sadly most players would rather you switch and make it easy on yourself, than burden them by making their jobs harder, and wasteing their time.

  12. #12
    Sword of Telara Shibi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elric-merren View Post
    If you remove the need or desire to switch specs to make fight easier by gaining cleanses, other styles of heals, or utility, than you might as well get rid of the soul system an make it a standard class system.
    Despite this - in the expert, not the raid environment - to me the question remains; why should a Trion built and suggested soul be incapable of getting past a magma torrent round? If they don't provide an AoE cleanse then they need to adjust the mechanic in fights so a fair skilled and geared player using one of Trion's own builds can get past it.

    You and I are going to disagree on it but what it says to me is that Trion are building the experts expecting people to switch boss to boss. It is their decision if this is the case, but if they know their builds are rubbish in experts and want people to actively switch boss to boss in a 5-man, then this is not my game.

    If it needs the build being fixed so less is put into the primary soul and more into the secondary, then this is the fix they should make.

    But right now Trion are in my eyes claiming the Deathwright is a capable healer. Trion, meet Telepheron.

    What I would really like to see is our dev, on a live stream, in average expert runner gear at this point in time use the deathwright (and all other Trion builds) in expert SBP from start to end. Elrar doesn't need to tank.
    Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned.
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  13. #13
    Champion of Telara Elric-merren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shibi View Post
    Despite this - in the expert, not the raid environment - to me the question remains; why should a Trion built and suggested soul be incapable of getting past a magma torrent round? If they don't provide an AoE cleanse then they need to adjust the mechanic in fights so a fair skilled and geared player using one of Trion's own builds can get past it.

    You and I are going to disagree on it but what it says to me is that Trion are building the experts expecting people to switch boss to boss. It is their decision if this is the case, but if they know their builds are rubbish in experts and want people to actively switch boss to boss in a 5-man, then this is not my game.

    If it needs the build being fixed so less is put into the primary soul and more into the secondary, then this is the fix they should make.

    But right now Trion are in my eyes claiming the Deathwright is a capable healer. Trion, meet Telepheron.

    What I would really like to see is our dev, on a live stream, in average expert runner gear at this point in time use the deathwright (and all other Trion builds) in expert SBP from start to end. Elrar doesn't need to tank.
    Well because why even tinker with the souls at all if a pre-built will be abel to get past all content, and fights without having to change. The idea is to give the different souls each pros and cons, with one having a aoe cleanse, but not having some of the other goodies like shields or such to fall back on. The pre-built builds are there to teach you and show you the system, not to be a build that will be usable in all content.

    If you find that your choosen pre-built combo is nto working as well, than it makes you actually do what the soul system is about, custom making a soul combat that will do that for you. It allows the players to have a incentive to try out and figure out the other soul in non-raid content where you have only a small group of people relying on you.

    Also a capable healing soul can deal with most sistuations, but will not be able to cope in ever situation. Some healers will fail in areas that other excell in, while those same ones will fail in other areas that other excell in. An capable means that you can finsih it, not at all about how hard/fustrating the attempt to do those in will be, as all of the soul have a cleanse with afew having two.

  14. #14
    Sword of Telara Shibi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elric-merren View Post
    Well because why even tinker with the souls at all if a pre-built will be abel to get past all content
    To do it better.

    But as a minimum - in my eyes - the Trion suggested builds should be just capable or they should be changed or the fights changed so they are.

    If you find that your choosen pre-built combo is nto working as well, than it makes you actually do what the soul system is about, custom making a soul combat that will do that for you.
    Then the game is once more not for me. Creating a soul, taking a pinch of this and a pinch of that in order to get something that can get past a certain mechanic is not fun for me. In my eyes the builds provided still should be capable of getting past any mechanic in a 5 man. If they are not then they have to be made so they are.

    Maybe the dev when he did the 61/15 Deathwright - which is so brilliant for everything else but experts - had run out of time and just did it as a filler. Maybe he made a mistake. Maybe he never actively ran a Dungeon as a Deathwright without god mode. Who knows, but it's broken.

    It would be a brilliant support, wonderful DPS and it brings 30% damage drop on the tank as well as huge heals, but I can't get mine to queue. I would happily play it as support. I just want to get through an expert with it. Just once.

    Anyway, we are going in circles. So to break that vicious cycle:

    2.1 bought many improvements for the Deathwright so movement has been made. Working hard on gearing has helped my spell Crit Hit up (still only 15.1% though, I can't squeeze any more out) which has helped me see a few more crits and far less small numbers on a real person, it still doesn't explain why the beacon of despair gets way more crit than a tank though - this is still a huge disparity in my eyes.
    Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned.
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  15. #15
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    I find that cleric healing is easy mode in Experts. As long as the party doesn't stand in stupid it's relatively easy to heal without support. The main problem that PuGs encounter is people who don't know mechanics or who are severely undergeared for the content. I recently had a tank who only has 278 hit trying to tank. Seriously... you need 300 to interrupt the mechanic.

    Another issue I find when tanking and I get PuG healers is they are undergeared also. In my opinion, you can get away with a couple pieces of green/non-level 60 gear(capes and necks seem to be the biggest culprits). Since there is crafted gear and +18 hit runes, people think that just because they have the hit, they have the stats to get into experts. This just isn't the case right now. An easy indicator if you are carrying someone: If the support and the main healer have similar HPS, the main healer is probably undergeared. If one DPS is pulling 2x - 3x that of another DPS, the other one is either undergeared or doesn't understand how to play their spec.

    With adequate gear, an understanding of the fights, and a group that actually gets out of stupid, I find it fairly easy to heal. I know two of those three are on me and it's not always easy to find the third; however, when the boss fight starts and the PuG dies to mechanics, I don't Brez them. They're just going to die to the same mechanic again when my Brez could be saved for someone that actually can do their job and/or are needed.

    TL;DR Gear up and try to encourage your PuGs to gear up. Just because someone can enter experts doesn't mean they're geared enough to. Run alternating EC/TS normal runs just like the old days of CC/AP.

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