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Thread: Shaman might need some ST DPS love

  1. #1
    Champion of Telara
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    Default Shaman might need some ST DPS love

    Just throwin' it out there, when I have my 1s GCD I am doing "appropriate" DPS, but after about 20 seconds after that falls off my DPS drops into the "inappropriate" range. On average, I can get to around 9k ST DPS in the first 20-30s of my shaman rotation, but after a minute it drops down to around 7k ST DPS. With inquisitor, there is a similar drop-off, but it bursts up to nearly 12-13k DPS then drops back down to around 9-9.4k.

    Seems like if I could keep the 1s GCD active all the time, my shaman would have the right level of ST DPS. Of course... if that were the case I would have stupidly high AoE DPS (30-35k range), so in general I feel like just a boost to DPS on certain abilities would be better.

    Hell, go back to old Jolt off the GCD and it might be back to normal.

  2. #2
    Ascendant BishopX's Avatar
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    Jolt REALLY should be off GCD if you spec high enough into shaman, but then again I want shaman to remain difficult to use so you macro spammers cant easily use the class and cry and complain about it.
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  3. #3
    Telaran Tarna2929's Avatar
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    While my guild's findings have been similar, this information could use some context. Is this on the dummy? Buffs? Whats going on? Where am I?

  4. #4
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    On a target dummy, I'm finding Shaman is approx 2-2.5k DPS behind Inquisitor in melee range for ST DPS. I find it is about 10k higher in AoE DPS on a group of target dummies.

    While this sounds cool for AoE, and it's fairly simple to play, the spec should be more capable at ST DPS. We already have great AoE options and AoE in general is far less useful (Cab and Defiler both do excellent AoE, especially when combined).

    I don't see a need to reduce Shaman's AoE DPS, or buff it's ST past that of Inquisitor -- but I feel that it should be closer to 1k or even 500 DPS less than Inquisitor at the most. What seems to be a good way to accomplish this is to change Jolt back to an OGCD ability that has a 6s CD and procs when you crit (which is how it used to work) giving us more room to use Icy Blow, and possibly improve the DoT damage from Massive Blow and/or Lightning Strike.
    Last edited by Patchkid; 12-10-2012 at 09:09 AM.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patchkid View Post
    I don't see a need to reduce Shaman's AoE DPS, or buff it's ST past that of Inquisitor -- but I feel that it should be closer to 1k or even 500 DPS less than Inquisitor at the most.
    Don't agree, Shaman SHOULD do MORE DPS than inqui since:
    -Shaman is melee and Inquisitor Ranged, without forgetting that Shaman suffer VERY MUCH from disconnect with boss, since we do very crap DPS at range, Ekkehard's Grasp are ****, he don't even proc Frostbite, and don't say it's melee so it don't need range possibility, since for example, RiftBlade do much more DPS than inquisitor at melee, and have a full ranged cycle who do decent DPS.
    -Shaman have less utility (only a kick) versus Kick purge and Clinging spirit.
    -Shaman is MUCH MORE difficult to master than inquisitor and to play.
    -Inquisitor have less (no?) mana problem with Aggresive Renewal instant, where shaman need to use a GCD who do no damage and be snare 5sec to restore mana, and with the disconnect problem with shaman, you can't be snare or your DPS will fall too much.
    -Inquisitor have more burst, and it's very usefull in many fight.

  6. #6
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    Actually riftblade range is crap, two 15s cooldown abilities and one 30s. But that's irrelevant, shaman sounds like it is doing war like dps which is currently under review for being crap. Melee specs should all be superior to range as per the devs statement. So if it is falling to 7kish it needs a boost

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by vladvador View Post
    Don't agree, Shaman SHOULD do MORE DPS than inqui since:
    -Shaman is melee and Inquisitor Ranged, without forgetting that Shaman suffer VERY MUCH from disconnect with boss, since we do very crap DPS at range, Ekkehard's Grasp are ****, he don't even proc Frostbite, and don't say it's melee so it don't need range possibility, since for example, RiftBlade do much more DPS than inquisitor at melee, and have a full ranged cycle who do decent DPS.
    -Shaman have less utility (only a kick) versus Kick purge and Clinging spirit.
    -Shaman is MUCH MORE difficult to master than inquisitor and to play.
    -Inquisitor have less (no?) mana problem with Aggresive Renewal instant, where shaman need to use a GCD who do no damage and be snare 5sec to restore mana, and with the disconnect problem with shaman, you can't be snare or your DPS will fall too much.
    -Inquisitor have more burst, and it's very usefull in many fight.
    In order for Shaman to be equal or better than Inquis for ST DPS, it would have to have a serious reduction to AoE damage. Being able to change to AoE DPS on the fly with a single buff swap, moving into a very easy rotation, and being capable of close to 30k AoE DPS compared to Inquis (~14-18k) is just too powerful an advantage.

    I don't mind Shaman being the "Jack of all Trades" DPS build personally. It would have it's place on fights where there is both AoE and ST DPS, but would be less optimal for fights that are pure ST or have significant AoE.

    Personally, I feel Druid should be our top ST DPS spec (hate druid tho) and it isn't.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patchkid View Post
    In order for Shaman to be equal or better than Inquis for ST DPS, it would have to have a serious reduction to AoE damage. Being able to change to AoE DPS on the fly with a single buff swap, moving into a very easy rotation, and being capable of close to 30k AoE DPS compared to Inquis (~14-18k) is just too powerful an advantage.
    Who care about melee AoE DPS? In PvP it's useless, and in PvE.... the only fight where Mono and AoE DPS is needed are...Zamira (essentially 2add cleave, shaman do crap DPS versus 2enemy, but Inqui are good, with very less big AoE, no AoE at all now since you don't need book), Akylios only in P1(same, after it's a 2targer cleave, shaman is bad for that, but inqui can do pretty good DPS if you play good enough with your DoT), and, hum gaurath at old day?

    But inqui need a little boost to CoO, since why fire storm (pyromancer) do more damage than CoO with the EXACT mechanic? not very fair.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by vladvador View Post
    Who care about melee AoE DPS? In PvP it's useless, and in PvE.... the only fight where Mono and AoE DPS is needed are...Zamira (essentially 2add cleave, shaman do crap DPS versus 2enemy, but Inqui are good, with very less big AoE, no AoE at all now since you don't need book), Akylios only in P1(same, after it's a 2targer cleave, shaman is bad for that, but inqui can do pretty good DPS if you play good enough with your DoT), and, hum gaurath at old day?

    But inqui need a little boost to CoO, since why fire storm (pyromancer) do more damage than CoO with the EXACT mechanic? not very fair.
    Actually, it's a huge issue and has been a huge issue for months and months. Warriors were complained about for many patch cycles since they had DPS builds that were top ST and AoE DPS in instances. There have been, historically, a lot of fights in the past that had short duration AoE needs and ST at the same time. Making Shaman better ST and better AoE than any other Cleric spec, and potentially better in both areas than other ST class DPS builds would be a major balance concern.

    You list very few encounters from old raids, but I could list probably 7-8 more encounters that obviously favored having both ST and AOE DPS in their arsenal (Alsbeth, Greenscale, Akylios, Zamira, Zilas, Grugonim, Eggs in ID, Maelforge had AoE components and I'm sure I'm missing some).

    From the new raids you could already argue that the 1st boss in the Frozen Tempest has a place for both ST and AoE DPS...

    In the end, having the best of both worlds in a single build has always been a balance complaint for the DPS PvE community. Being able to do AoE in PvP is less important now, but that isn't really the point. If Shaman is our best ST DPS build for PvE, and has substantially higher AoE DPS that is almost as good as Cabalist in some settings, could be a major balance issue since no other ST DPS build (except arguably RB) has quite the same potential.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by vladvador View Post
    Who care about melee AoE DPS? In PvP it's useless, and in PvE.... the only fight where Mono and AoE DPS is needed are...Zamira (essentially 2add cleave, shaman do crap DPS versus 2enemy, but Inqui are good, with very less big AoE, no AoE at all now since you don't need book), Akylios only in P1(same, after it's a 2targer cleave, shaman is bad for that, but inqui can do pretty good DPS if you play good enough with your DoT), and, hum gaurath at old day?

    But inqui need a little boost to CoO, since why fire storm (pyromancer) do more damage than CoO with the EXACT mechanic? not very fair.
    there are many fights where shaman AoE dps is usefull. (old fights included, even though they are out of date it was still relevant back in its day)

    Duke
    Oracle Aleria
    Herald
    Alsbeth
    Zilas
    Prime
    Grugonim (maybe)
    Estrode (maybe)
    Matron
    Darktide
    Akylios
    Bouldergut
    Laethys


    I'm not saying that its the best ever for those fights, but shaman at least has some use in them. In storm legion i'd assume there will be more fights that include cleaving down enemies near the boss which is where shaman excels.

    However it cannot be doing 2k less ST dps as it is now, i'd say reduce the AoE damage by 20% in exchange for 20% more ST dps. It might even need more of a boost than that because of the extreme difficulty of the rotation, disconnects are BRUTAL dps losses. Melee specs are supposed to be 5% higher than ranged to account for disconnects but shaman loses way more dps than that which will make up for the high amount of AoE damage the soul has

  11. #11
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    Yes it's usefull, but not OP nor needed, The AoE in this fight a very little component, and since they don't need to be instant kill, Shaman will not AoE in this fight because he loose to much ST DPS, exept if you don't care of usefull DPS and only want to be top parse...

    In the old time, Warrior have best Single and AoE DPS in the same spec, but the Damage per target in they AoE was almost equal to their Single target, making them OP. shaman loose MUCH damage at their principal target with AoE.


    You compare Cabalist and Shaman, but Cabalist do almost equal DPS that Shaman at single target DPS actually, all in Range, Instant and some spell can be done from back. Cabalist do more DPS than shaman if they are 2target, Shaman and Cabalist are almost equal at 3target, and if more target Cabalist are too much ahead.


    Seems not fair, especially since Shaman are the worst DPS of the game in case of disconnect, you can do nothing exept spam an useless spell at range.

    I don't care if they nerf Shaman AoE to the ground if they want, but Shaman need a big UP at single target DPS, having a hard spec to play, with lot of default, who can't even outparse other spec in dummy seems totally not fair, since it's a SINGLE TARGET soul.
    Last edited by vladvador; 12-11-2012 at 09:52 AM.

  12. #12
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    I believe everyone in this community agrees that the shaman's ST DPS is below where it is expected to be, and is not arguing against that point at all. I personally feel, for balance and to avoid the scenario Warriors experienced previously, that if Shaman ST DPS is buffed above that of Inquisitor, they will need a reduction in overall AoE damage potential. That could be easily accomplished (removed the spreading of Frozen Wrath, done, problem solved) but would also reduce it's "role" to that of ST Melee DPS. A role I find rather bland...

    Now, if it was equal to inquisitor ST DPS, but had to suffer through the disconnect issues while also retaining it's current state of AoE DPS, that would probably be acceptable...

    Like stated before, I feel Jolt as an OGCD ability + tweaking the DoTs in the spec would go a long way to bringing it back within the realm of Inquisitor DPS.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patchkid View Post
    Now, if it was equal to inquisitor ST DPS, but had to suffer through the disconnect issues while also retaining it's current state of AoE DPS, that would probably be acceptable...

    Like stated before, I feel Jolt as an OGCD ability + tweaking the DoTs in the spec would go a long way to bringing it back within the realm of Inquisitor DPS.
    This I can certainly get behind, but nerfing aoe to gain more st dps like some suggest is a terrible idea. Staying as is would be better than taking from one hand to give to the other. Right now you can go inq for max st, cab for max aoe, and shm for a mix of both. I don't want to be forced into cab for heavy ae fights just to have two st builds doing the same dps.

    But yes I agree shm could use a tweak to st dps and I think patchkid is onto something with jolt.
    Last edited by Iksander; 12-11-2012 at 01:38 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iksander View Post
    This I can certainly get behind, but nerfing aoe to gain more st dps like some suggest is a terrible idea. Staying as is would be better than taking from one hand to give to the other. Right now you can go inq for max st, cab for max aoe, and shm for a mix of both. I don't want to be forced into cab for heavy ae fights just to have two st builds doing the same dps.
    Druid fills the role of ST/AoE combo excellently while not being the best at either, and able to switch between them on the fly.

  15. #15
    Plane Touched Iksander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGrinnz View Post
    Druid fills the role of ST/AoE combo excellently while not being the best at either, and able to switch between them on the fly.
    druid.....*gags*

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