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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: Doctrine Of Glory

  1. #46
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    Have any of you actually looked at what Soul Coalescence actually does before stating that DoG will be under powered in comparison, or that it's not fair having to save your convictions?

    As stated, consume 7 convictions for a 20(.02)% mitigation for 4s. That lines up exactly rogues. In fact, yours is a bit OP because you only have to build up 7 convictions, where as a rogue has to build up 20 stacks before using it again. Given how easily convictions are to gain, shouldn't have any problems popping 1 or 2 for DoL where needed. And as a tank, shouldn't have to consume them all for hammers.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caldorian View Post
    Have any of you actually looked at what Soul Coalescence actually does before stating that DoG will be under powered in comparison, or that it's not fair having to save your convictions?

    As stated, consume 7 convictions for a 20(.02)% mitigation for 4s. That lines up exactly rogues. In fact, yours is a bit OP because you only have to build up 7 convictions, where as a rogue has to build up 20 stacks before using it again. Given how easily convictions are to gain, shouldn't have any problems popping 1 or 2 for DoL where needed. And as a tank, shouldn't have to consume them all for hammers.
    Hammers and DoA are crucial components of a Cleric tank's threat ability.

    Rogues have to build up 20 stacks but they don't have anything to use the stacks on other than Soul Coalescence.

    Don't think it's really an issue though, just requires a bit more planning for Cleric tanks.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pork Star View Post
    Is that 4 seconds per conviction? If so, that's 28 seconds, which balances out our OP .02% advantage over the other callings. If not...a spanking!!!
    Quote Originally Posted by Caldorian View Post
    Have any of you actually looked at what Soul Coalescence actually does
    I certainly didn't! Didn't even know that it was a skill. After taking a look at it, I retract my threats of spankings.

    Got to stop posting right after I wake up, that's two derps this week!
    Last edited by Pork Star; 12-06-2012 at 08:42 AM.

  4.   Click here to go to the next Rift Team post in this thread.   #49
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    Riftstalkers, Justicars, and Void Knights all have to spend stuff for it. Reavers and Paladins don't have to spend anything, because they have nothing to spend but their souls and those are in limited supply. If that means some Warriors will take Paladin instead of Void Knight, just so they don't have to build up pacts to use their little cooldown ability, that's great.

    Yes, it will have a 30s CD, yes it's off GCD. No, unfortunately Total Assurance doesn't interact with it in any particularly cool way. It's just a good way to immediately get the 7 convictions right away if you want them. No, you don't have to hold onto your convictions all day in case you need to use them for DoG because if you really, really need to use this right away and you just spent all of your convictions, use Total Assurance. Besides, you've already got 2 other CDs you can use instead.

    No, Reprieve isn't being buffed right now. Honestly, you don't need it. You've got a 30s CD, a 1m CD, and a 2m CD, two of which combine really nicely for a super CD. If we feel like Justicars need a little boost one day, maybe we'll let it heal for a percentage of max health once and for all. That will not be happening on this particular day. That's because you're good enough, you're smart enough, and dogonne it, people like you!
    Last edited by Zinbik; 12-06-2012 at 10:27 AM.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zinbik View Post
    Riftstalkers, Justicars, and Void Knights all have to spend stuff for it. Reavers and Paladins don't have to spend anything, because they have nothing to spend but their souls and those are in limited supply. If that means some Warriors will take Paladin instead of Void Knight, just so they don't have to build up pacts to use their little cooldown ability, that's great.

    Yes, it will have a 30s CD, yes it's off GCD. No, unfortunately Total Assurance doesn't interact with it in any particularly cool way. It's just a good way to immediately get the 7 convictions right away if you want them. No, you don't have to hold onto your convictions all day in case you need to use them for DoG because if you really, really need to use this right away and you just spent all of your convictions, use Total Assurance. Besides, you've already got 2 other CDs you can use instead.

    No, Reprieve isn't being buffed right now. Honestly, you don't need it. You've got a 30s CD, a 1m CD, and a 2m CD, two of which combine really nicely for a super CD. If we feel like Justicars need a little boost one day, maybe we'll let it heal for a percentage of max health once and for all. That will not be happening on this particular day. That's because you're good enough, you're smart enough, and dogonne it, people like you!
    And dont forgot Reprieve is like having another taunt that also heals for 5k !
    <Addiction>
    Trasgress - Greybriar - #1 Cleric Tank - How to Inquis in pvp

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zinbik View Post

    No, Reprieve isn't being buffed right now. Honestly, you don't need it. !
    Game is not only pve :L
    Last edited by Eughe; 12-06-2012 at 12:48 PM.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zinbik View Post
    No, Reprieve isn't being buffed right now. Honestly, you don't need it. You've got a 30s CD, a 1m CD, and a 2m CD, two of which combine really nicely for a super CD. If we feel like Justicars need a little boost one day, maybe we'll let it heal for a percentage of max health once and for all. That will not be happening on this particular day. That's because you're good enough, you're smart enough, and dogonne it, people like you!
    Disagree with this. Our defensive CDs as a whole needs to be relooked at, compared to what the warriors have/are getting soon, and what rogues have now.

    Going to rehash some of the stuff I've already mentioned before

    In 2.1:

    61 Justicar
    - Reprieve (~5-6k heal to the cleric and cleric's mandate target, 1 minute CD)
    - Just Defense (Absorb 50% of cleric's maximum health over 10 secs, 1 minute CD)
    - Resplendent Embrace (Increase incoming healing by 50%, maximum health by 20% for 10 seconds, 2 minute CD)
    - Doctrine of Glory (Reduces incoming damage by 20% for 4 seconds. 30s Cooldown.)

    58 paladin is going to have:
    - Touch of Life (100% heal, 1 min 30 sec CD, shared CD with Rapture of Life)
    - Life's Rapture (Reduces damage taken by 10% and restores health equal to 100% of the Warrior's Maximum Health over 6s on up to party or raid members. 1 min 30 sec CD, shared CD with Touch of Life)
    - Shield Defense (35% less damage for 10s. 1 min CD)
    - Light's Protection (Increase incoming heal by 15% for 12 seconds. 1 minute CD)
    - Aegis of the Light (Reduces incoming damage by 20% for 4 seconds. 30s Cooldown.)

    61 reaver is going to have:
    - Crest of Entropy (35% less damage for 10s. 1 min CD)
    - Crest of Shadow (~1k absorb, 30 sec CD)
    - Crest of Consumption (Reduces incoming damage by 20% for 4 seconds. 30s Cooldown.)

    61 VK is going to have:

    - Fusion of Flesh (Consumes up to 5 Pacts, absorbing non-Physical damage equal to 20% of the Warrior's Maximum Health per Pact consumed. When hit by non-Physical damage, restores 20% health. Lasts 30s or until 5 non-Physical hits have been taken. 2 minutes CD)
    - Power Shield (Reduces incoming damage by 20% for 4 seconds. 30s Cooldown.)
    - Rift Shield (~1k absorb for 5 pacts consumed, 15 sec CD)
    - Protective Shield (Consume 1 Pact each second for a maximum of 6s to Absorb 318 damage per stack, and awarding 1 Attack Point every 2 seconds. Absorbs last 15s. 1 minute CD)
    - Rift Reversal (Reflect 3 spell back, 2 minute CD)

    61 Riftstalker have:
    - Defer Death (Applies Defer Death if the Rogue receives a killing blow within 30s. Absorbs damage equal to 50% of the Rogue's Maximum Health for 15s. 2 minute CD)
    - Planar Refuge (30% less damage for 10s. 2 min CD)
    - Physical Wellness (Increase maximum HP for the raid by 3200 for 20 seconds. 1 minute 30 secs CD)
    - Scatter the Shadows (Reduce damage taken by 90% for 5 seconds. Removes all cleansible effects. 2 minutes CD)
    - Planebound Aegies (Absorb 50% of the rogue's maximum health over 10 secs. Healths the rogue the amount absorbed after the effect expired. 2 minutes CD)
    - Soul Coalescence (Reduces incoming damage by 20% for 4 seconds. 30s Cooldown.)

    -----------------

    Reprieve is horribly underpowered compared to what Life's Rapture is doing. It really needs to scale of maximum HP considering that Life's Rapture have a significantly larger effect than Reprieve, and Paladins have the same amount of CDs as us.

    ----

    Just Defense isn't comparable to Shield's Defense/Crest of Entrophy/Planar Refuge.

    Generally absorb shields aren't worth it compared to straight damage reduction.

    Right now I have about 55k HP raid buffed. Just Defense will absorb for 27500. Raid bosses are easily hitting for more than 20k with their special attack, which means Just Defense is already at the point where it might not even fully mitigate off a boss's attack.

    OTOH the 30 or 35% reduction CD always last the full duration, and mitigate much more damage than just defense.

    Say a boss auto attack every second for 5k post mitigation, and does a big hit for 20k post mitigation every 5 seconds.

    Just Defense will mitigate off a flat 27500 damage.

    OTOH, the 35% reduction CD will reduce (8 * 5000 * 0.35) + (2 * 20000 * 0.35) = 28000 damage.

    The harder a boss hit, the more valuable the flat damage reduction will become since mob damage scale much faster than player's health.

    We need such a damage reduction CD on top of the Soul Coalesence clone that every tank soul is getting. VK also need such a damage reduction CD since their shielding CD are in an even more horrible state than Just Defense, and Reaver need an additional CD too.

    Justicar is also the only tanking soul that gets its first CD at level 32, while the other tanking souls get CDs at level 21.

    I suggest combine Devout Deflection and Stalwart Citadel into a single 3 point talent which converts 33/66/100% of wisdom/intelligence into dodge/parry/block. Use that 1 freed up talent point to put Just Defense as a tier 5 talent.

    Shift Hammer of Faith from a 51 branch ability to a 36 pt root ability to fill in Just Defense's spot.

    Add a new 51 pt branch ability:

    Bulwark of Faith
    2 mins CD
    Reduce damage taken by 30% for 10s

    Or if you have that makes us OP, just change Just Defense to:

    Just Defense
    1 min CD
    Reduce damage taken by 35% for 10s

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zinbik View Post
    http://xkcd.com/386/

    As of right now, internally, all tanks have nearly identical health and mitigation. This is already largely true on LIVE.

    Nearly all of the changes currently being made to Warrior tanks involve allowing them to establish their mitigation more easily or passively against all monsters involved in the fight. Justicars already have the advantage there, because the only active mitigation factor we have to establish during the fight is Precept of Refuge. Everything else is passive or a lengthy buff, meaning we get the full benefits against all monsters right from the start of the fight.

    The only real changes to the math behind Warrior mitigation are largely minor to help establish better internal Warrior equivalency. I'm not going to completely discount the possibility of some crazy new hybrid popping up that we haven't considered that comes out ahead, because that happens sometimes in a system like this. However, that possibility has been at the forefront of our thoughts throughout the process.

    As far as Soul Coalescence equivalents go, yes, Doctrine of Glory will soon reduce your damage taken by 2.86% per Conviction consumed for 4s. It will no longer heal at all, because it was unloved and no longer wishes to help anyone.
    Daglar, I appreciate the update to Doctrine of Glory.

    However, there is a minor detail you are lover lookingr. This is a 58 point skill and not a 61. There is no guarantee that the Justicar tank in question would have the three points put into the extra convictions. It may not be likely, but still possible.

    What I would do is make this ability consume 4 Convictions, at 5% per conviction. This is crucial because even full 61 point Justicars can be caught with their pants down at a crucial moment, if they don't have the 7 convictions for the full effect. As an added bonus, we won't loose all of our self-healing capabilities when we use this, allowing us to use three Doctrines of Bliss after the use of the skill.
    Quote Originally Posted by Daglar
    Hey guys, there is a lot of speculation out there right now, I wanted to come out and say the following pretty definitively: There is no goal to make DPS clerics that DPS do less damage than other callings.
    Daglar; Lead Calling Designer~10/17/12

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finella View Post
    Generally absorb shields aren't worth it compared to straight damage reduction.
    Mechanics that ignore mitigation or do a % of HP would disagree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony01 View Post
    Daglar, I appreciate the update to Doctrine of Glory.

    However, there is a minor detail you are lover lookingr. This is a 58 point skill and not a 61. There is no guarantee that the Justicar tank in question would have the three points put into the extra convictions. It may not be likely, but still possible.

    What I would do is make this ability consume 4 Convictions, at 5% per conviction. This is crucial because even full 61 point Justicars can be caught with their pants down at a crucial moment, if they don't have the 7 convictions for the full effect. As an added bonus, we won't loose all of our self-healing capabilities when we use this, allowing us to use three Doctrines of Bliss after the use of the skill.
    That isn't Daglar, and if you aren't going 61 Justicar you have other issues than your cooldown not being maximally effective.

  10.   Click here to go to the next Rift Team post in this thread.   #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony01 View Post
    Daglar, I appreciate the update to Doctrine of Glory.
    You are quoting Zinbik but addressing me here... toss your feedback on the issue to him please! Also, I'm the Lead Game Designer, not the lead calling designer as per your sig

    I'll let Zin respond to this thread if he has anything to add.

    Daglar
    Lead Game Designer: Rift

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eughe View Post
    Game is not only pve :L
    justicar can heal 4k, don't see the problem

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony01 View Post
    Daglar, I appreciate the update to Doctrine of Glory.

    However, there is a minor detail you are lover lookingr. This is a 58 point skill and not a 61. There is no guarantee that the Justicar tank in question would have the three points put into the extra convictions. It may not be likely, but still possible.

    What I would do is make this ability consume 4 Convictions, at 5% per conviction. This is crucial because even full 61 point Justicars can be caught with their pants down at a crucial moment, if they don't have the 7 convictions for the full effect. As an added bonus, we won't loose all of our self-healing capabilities when we use this, allowing us to use three Doctrines of Bliss after the use of the skill.
    The Void Knight ability consumes pacts which results in a significant (but temporary) armor loss. For cleric's using Convictions results in a temporary loss to threat or potential healing. Given how weak Cleric tank healing is overall, you're exaggerating the implications. And any cleric tank who somehow doesn't have max 7 Convictions talent while spending 58 pts is /facepalm.

    Honestly, as a tank I see no problem with Zibnik's implementation.

    As a tank you're basically using CD's in two scenario's:

    1) Mitigating expected damage on timers.
    Since the damage is timed, you can easily have 7 Convictions stored. Max mitigation every time.

    2) Total emergency situations.
    Since its off-GCD, you'll use it regardless of how many Convictions you have. Its an emergency. A Void Knight tank could very well not have full pacts or a Rogue without full stacks. The only change would be potentially refraining from burning all your Convictions if you expected an emergency situation.
    ---------------------------------------------
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  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pork Star View Post
    justicar can heal 4k, don't see the problem
    Not in pvp. 'memba, its already nerfed in pvp from the get go. Heals less than any other tank heal.

  14. #59
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    Thank you Zin. It will definitelly get more love now.

    However I still think something should be done about Divine Right.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eughe View Post
    Game is not only pve :L
    This.

    I would have a question to Zinbik and others. Are in general the healing which is %based approprately decreased in PVP? If not, has the implication of this weigthted by the design team?

    Thanks

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