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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: PTS - Justicar (discussion)

  1. #16
    Telaran
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    Ok in my ID tank gear

    my SoJ hits for 790 Ave
    my HoD hits for 2500 ish non crit for 7 conviction
    DoL healing for 370 per cast to 10 people

    1 Dol hitting 10 people looks to me to generate more threat then a 7 point HoD. Now I am being very very generic in saying that as I am not 100% of the formulas that threat for healing and damage but I have a good idea. Yes 1 point of damage does = more then 1 point of healing but not by that wide of a standard.

    Also I do understand that conviction will be coming in at a much higher rate then they do now so you would need less GCD to cast a 7 Conviction stacked HoD I have taken that into consideration and I do need more time with it to really rule the new hammers out. I also understand that Salvation procs from HoD will add to the threat of HoD.

    Now if I am completely off with my assumptions(Cause that's all they are at this point) then please by all means let me know
    Last edited by Gile; 10-11-2012 at 04:18 PM.

  2. #17
    RIFT Guide Writer Redcruxs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gile View Post
    The new Hammer abilities just do not do enough damage to warrant using 7 full convictions on and are going to generate more threat.

    I guess knowing how threat is calculated for damage abilities vs healing abilities would go a long way into find out how much damage these moves need to do in order to be worth it. I'll recopy over to PTS here and get some numbers how much a full 7 point Hammer of Duty is doing vs a Single point DoL. Though the really limited math I did before showed two DoL where more threat in a raid situation then 1 full 7 Conviction HoD

    Though these hammers will be better for 5man content but I really could care less about that.
    the hammer is doing 2.5k+ damage to 4-5 targets (or something) that is ridiculous as far as threat goes... but its not meant to replace DoL, its meant for those times when you need burst aggro management.

    keep in mind healing does half the amount of threat that damage does


    Quote Originally Posted by Gile View Post
    The other changes to Mitigation are great though only time will tell if they make up for the huge lose in avoidance but I feel the extra HPs and armor make up for that already
    it does, for sure.



    Quote Originally Posted by Gile View Post
    Ok in my ID tank gear

    my SoJ hits for 790 Ave
    my HoD hits for 2500 ish non crit for 7 conviction
    DoL healing for 370 per cast to 10 people

    1 Dol hitting 10 people looks to me to generate more threat then a 7 point HoD. Now I am being very very generic in saying that as I am not 100% of the formulas that threat for healing and damage but I have a good idea. Yes 1 point of damage does = more then 1 point of healing but not by that wide of a standard.

    Also I do understand that conviction will be coming in at a much higher rate then they do now so you would need less GCD to cast a 7 Conviction stacked HoD I have taken that into consideration and I do need more time with it to really rule the new hammers out. I also understand that Salvation procs from HoD will add to the threat of HoD.

    Now if I am completely off with my assumptions(Cause that's all they are at this point) then please by all means let me know
    1 healing = 3 threat

    1 damage = 6 threat

    based on that alone the hammer does more threat than the DoL, not counting salvation ticks which can be as much as DoL (salvation got a slight buff for tanks, DoL got nerfed)

  3. #18
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    I haven't really had the time to test out how the mitigation changes actually worked out, but generally the changes to Justicar looks good, and makes it a more interesting class.

    However I have some minor issues with the changes

    ---

    Utility
    =========

    With the change to thick skinned and courage of the bear, we are pretty much locked into having 6 points into Shaman, which in turn only allow us to put 9 points into other souls.

    Previously we have 12 pts to spare in other soul, and this could net us a purge (12 in inquisitor) or a cleanse (12 in purifier).

    This utility is now lost to us.

    Humility is removed from Justicar, and Impede too is removed from Inquisitor, leaving us without a snare.

    While we did gain a charge from Shaman, the lost of a snare and purge/cleanse results in us having less utility than before.

    ---

    Talents
    =========

    The changes to stalwart citadel and devout deflection are such that we no longer benefit from str/dex for our avoidance once we put any points into those talents.

    Having to waste 4 points to get basic tanking functionality is fairy disheartening now.

    On Live, it's somewhat justifiable to sacrifice 5 points for stalwart and devout as we benefited from having access to more equipment, especially in terms of lessers, and we were able to benefit from more stat buffs compared to other tanks.

    While devout deflection is now 2 points, instead of 3 points, this isn't really an improvement since Mien of Leadership now requires a talent point to be unlocked tpp/

    All in all, we are still using 5 points to get basic functionality that are baseline for the other tanks.

    Both talents needs to be changed into baseline root abilities or combined together to become a 2 pt talent, freeing up precious slots in our talent tree. As they are now, they just makes our tree feel bloated.

    We are also getting Mien of Leadership, a key part of our tanking capabilities a bit later on PTS than on live now that it's a tier 4 talent. Earliest we can get MOL is 16 on PTS, compared to 12 on Live.

    Realm of the Fae allows level 15s to queue for it. MOL really needs to be shift back to being a 12 pt root ability or level 15s who queue to tank in ROTF won't even have it.

    Mien of Honor is currently too weak as a talented ability. I understand that the healing done has to be reduced to prevent DOL from being prevalent again, but as it is now, the bonus is pretty insignificant.

    Currently on Live in MOL, my DOL hits for 600ish. On PTS, my DOL is hitting for high 400s in MOH, and low 400s in MOL. Salvation goes from low 500s in MOL to mid 500s in MOH.

    MOH should be cranked up to 20%, so that we at least see DOL values close to what we have on live in MOL. Another alternative is to have a 10-20% damage increase aspect tagged to it. Really don't see the worth in spending a talent point in it, as I don't currently see a situation where I'll expend a GCD, along with the 15s shared CD to switch over from MOL to MOH for that amount of healing increase.

    ---

    Cooldowns
    =========

    Looking at the other tanking trees, every other tank, except Justicar and Void Knight get some form of CDs at the 20pt mark.

    Riftstalker have Planar Refuge, Paladin have Touch of Life, Reaver have Crest of Entrophy and Warlord have No Permission to Die.

    We only get Just Defense at 32 pts.

    As mentioned earlier, I suggest combine Devout Deflection and Stalwart Citadel into a single 2 point talent, or make them baseline abilities. Put Just Defense at where Devout Deflection is, so that a level 21 Justicar have access to a CD, like the other tanking trees.

    Currently, Reprieve, while it's CD has been reduced from 5 mins to 1 min, is also healing significantly less than before. It's healing for about 2.7k, while on live, I'm healing for around 5.5k with it.

    Reprieve really needs to scale off HP in a similar manner to Paladin's Touch of Life rather than SP.

    Suggesting it to be 30% of the cleric's HP to the cleric and the cleric's mandate target. This allow us in total to heal 60% of our HP every minute, while a Paladin is able to fully heal himself every 2 min (1 min 30 sec talented).

    Other than the lack of a CD before 32, Justicars also lack CDs that scales properly with incoming damage.

    Using some random numbers, a fresh level 50 tank now for example has about 9k hp, and an ID geared one about 20k

    The bosses the fresh 50 meets hit for about 1k or so, which means Just Defense can mitigate off 4 hits.

    The bosses an ID gear tank meets however can hit for more than 10k, which means Just Defense sometimes can't even fully mitigate a hit, much less last for 10 secs.

    No matter what mob we face, Just Defense mitigate off a fix amount of incoming damage, while the percentage-based damage reduction CD the other classes have scales against the mob they fight.

    A percentage-based damage reduction CD really needs to be added at the higher levels to address this.

    Suggesting the follow:

    Shift Hammer of Faith from a 51 branch ability to a 36 pt root ability to fill in Just Defense's spot.

    Add a new 51 pt branch ability:

    Bulwark of Faith
    2 mins CD
    Reduce damage taken by 30% for 10s

    Both Warriors and Rogues currently have access to 30% damage reduction CDs. Clerics should have access to the same tool.

  4. #19
    Telaran
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    That's not 2500 dmg to 4 targets that 2500 dmg to one target as hammer of duty is single target hammer of faith the ae version of that hits for a quarter of that.to 4 targets both for 7 convictions.

  5. #20
    RIFT Guide Writer Redcruxs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gile View Post
    That's not 2500 dmg to 4 targets that 2500 dmg to one target as hammer of duty is single target hammer of faith the ae version of that hits for a quarter of that.to 4 targets both for 7 convictions.
    both of those skills hit for over 2.5k for me

  6. #21
    Telaran
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    Thanks for the reply. I will have to test HoF as I have not really messed with it and its tool tip is 1/4 of the damage as HoD which makes sense. You also just might have more SP then I do. Which would account for your higher dmg on HoD as I did this with 0 buffs and tried to hit dummies who where not debuffed. I am not in game but I think i was at 975ish in my tank gear. Thats mostly due to the fact that I use Str Lessers and was rune'd for INT which would give me less spell power. Not sure if u have full Wis based Sigil and Wis enchants on gear

    I guess I'm just more disappointed in the fact that the game play of the Justi tank is not any different and dumps are really lack luster on the damage side.

  7. #22
    Telaran
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    Yeah either HoF has changed or I just miss read while comparing them in beta so my assumption was wrong on the damage HoF does.

    With 983sp
    EJ hits for 600+32 from VofWS to 5 targets
    HoF does 1475 to 4 targets.
    HoD does 2500

    Maybe adding the hammer spells to Light of Creation would make these spell more desirable to use. I dunno if I could really argue if these where doing 30% more damage. Just in my experience tanking for NQ that I'd hardly use these.

    More I look at it maybe I am just grasping at straws. I dunno but something just does not sit right with me and the damage this hammers do.

    Again thanks for the feedback Red
    Last edited by Gile; 10-12-2012 at 10:42 AM.

  8. #23
    RIFT Guide Writer Redcruxs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gile View Post
    Yeah either HoF has changed or I just miss read while comparing them in beta so my assumption was wrong on the damage HoF does.

    With 983sp
    EJ hits for 600+32 from VofWS to 5 targets
    HoF does 1475 to 4 targets.
    HoD does 2500

    Maybe adding the hammer spells to Light of Creation would make these spell more desirable to use. I dunno if I could really argue if these where doing 30% more damage. Just in my experience tanking for NQ that I'd hardly use these.

    More I look at it maybe I am just grasping at straws. I dunno but something just does not sit right with me and the damage this hammers do.

    Again thanks for the feedback Red
    well there is one way to tell if they are better than DoL

    - how much does your DoL crit for?
    - how much does your hammer skills (both of them) crit for?
    - how much does your salvation heal for (crit if possible) when using the hammer skills?

    Crit's are better to theorycraft with than Hit's because each crit will always be a constant value (the maximum damage roll x1.5), when you use Hit's damage there is some variation in the values

    keep in mind, the hammer skills don't have to generate more threat than 7 DoL's to be useful, only more than 1 DoL, because then you can use them for burst aggro in the place of a DoL (assuming the mobs are already near you and assuming that you don't need the convictions at the moment)

  9. #24
    Telaran
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    Here are the crits for each move

    -Hammer of Faith 2209
    -Salv Crit 252 AoE
    -Hammer of Duty 3887
    -Salv Crit 504
    -DoL crit 511

    I do not know if you have messed around with AoE but salvation works different for AoE then it does for ST. It procs two half value Salvation procs per AoE ability fired. The problem with this is each of these procs has a individual chance to crit. Also need to look at the scaling of DoL vs Salvation and how it scales it raids.

    Also another thing to consider if these are ment for burst threat like you are saying would you use these over a single Doctrine of Authority. I was going to get the values for this and the PTS just died =(. What do you think about DoA total threat vrs both these hammers? I'll get some DoA values when the PTS is back

  10.   Click here to go to the next Rift Team post in this thread.   #25
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    Just so you guys can go ahead and theorycraft with more recent numbers, just last night I raised the base aggro multipliers on all Justicar heals to 2 (with the exception of Salvation when triggered by non-Justicar attacks) to match their damage. That'll go in sometime soon.
    Last edited by Zinbik; 10-12-2012 at 11:42 AM.

  11. #26
    Prophet of Telara Venditte's Avatar
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    The only thing I don't really like about new justicar, is the necessity of 6 shaman. Justicar is amazing now, and I will be playing cleric tank as my main spec in SL as much as I can. But I don't like how you need to be 6 shaman... Move the 10% wisdom from justicar to where the 5% damage reduction in shaman is and it'll be perfect.

  12. #27
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zinbik View Post
    Just so you guys can go ahead and theorycraft with more recent numbers, just last night I raised the base aggro multipliers on all Justicar heals to 2 (with the exception of Salvation when triggered by non-Justicar attacks) to match their damage. That'll go in sometime soon.
    Thanks Zinbik. Was that soon the patch that just went on the PTS the same time you posted. Or is that in a later build?

    Also so now healing and damage does the same threat point for point when its generated using Justicar abilities or am I misunderstanding you?
    Last edited by Gile; 10-12-2012 at 12:03 PM.

  13.   Click here to go to the next Rift Team post in this thread.   #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gile View Post
    Thanks Zinbik. Was that soon the patch that just went on the PTS the same time you posted. Or is that in a later build?
    The build had already gone through by the time I made the change, so it won't be up today. Rather, it will be in... THE FUTURE!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gile View Post
    Also so now healing and damage does the same threat point for point when its generated using Justicar abilities or am I misunderstanding you?
    Correct.

  14. #29
    Telaran
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    Thanks

    Than that reaffirms my theory that Dol is going to be more threat in a raid situation then any of the hammer abilities. What is your thought process on the new hammer abilites.(IE your vision for their use) and am I approaching them the wrong way in my thinking?
    Last edited by Gile; 10-12-2012 at 12:09 PM.

  15. #30
    RIFT Guide Writer Redcruxs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zinbik View Post
    Just so you guys can go ahead and theorycraft with more recent numbers, just last night I raised the base aggro multipliers on all Justicar heals to 2 (with the exception of Salvation when triggered by non-Justicar attacks) to match their damage. That'll go in sometime soon.

    by base aggro multiplier you mean that each point of healing will do 2x your heal value in threat? or 200% of your heal threat?

    I guess i'm confused because last time i read about threat values i read that heals naturally generate only half as much threat as damage spells. Then, THAT value is what was being multiplied by MoL. (and assumed that overhealing was the same as healing)

    basically, how many points of threat would i gain if i just did 1 point of healing? from what you just said i would think it was 2, but I thought we were already at 3 (half of 1+500% = 0.5*6 = 3)

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