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Thread: Per Soul: What changes you want made/ How you want it done for the revamp in SL

  1. #16
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    I know some people are suggesting removal of RNG elements from our dps (such as Brutalize in Shaman), but I think there can be a "good" type of RNG involving your procs that can maximize the fun of playing the spec (no more 2-button Shaman spec) while also making it more difficult and rewarding (high dps and requiring quick thinking when prioritizing abilities).
    Last edited by Ahov; 08-16-2012 at 09:21 AM.

  2. #17
    RIFT Guide Writer TheGrinnz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahov View Post
    I know some people are suggesting removal of RNG elements from our dps (such as Brutalize in Shaman), but I think there can be a "good" type of RNG involving your procs that can maximize the fun of playing the spec (no more 2-button Shaman spec) while also making it more difficult and rewarding (high dps and requiring quick thinking when prioritizing abilities)
    I thought there was no such thing as RNG ;)

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGrinnz View Post
    I thought there was no such thing as RNG ;)
    People really love misquoting my old signature, huh.
    Last edited by Ahov; 08-16-2012 at 09:22 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahov View Post
    I know some people are suggesting removal of RNG elements from our dps (such as Brutalize in Shaman), but I think there can be a "good" type of RNG involving your procs that can maximize the fun of playing the spec (no more 2-button Shaman spec) while also making it more difficult and rewarding (high dps and requiring quick thinking when prioritizing abilities).
    I agree there can be good types of RNG (See: Opportunity procs for mages), but are you suggesting that Brutalize being RNG is okay? Or just using it as an example? I would like to see the RNG component for Brutalize removed or completely revamped, which I have a feeling Zinbik already has done for SL. Keeping brutalize stacks up should be a controllable thing, some RNG is good...but RNG to a core class mechanic (such as brutalize) is not an example of where RNG is good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluelightt View Post
    I agree there can be good types of RNG (See: Opportunity procs for mages), but are you suggesting that Brutalize being RNG is okay? Or just using it as an example? I would like to see the RNG component for Brutalize removed or completely revamped, which I have a feeling Zinbik already has done for SL. Keeping brutalize stacks up should be a controllable thing, some RNG is good...but RNG to a core class mechanic (such as brutalize) is not an example of where RNG is good.
    I think the current Brutalize mechanic is bad, but it's not incredibly far away from being good. At the moment if you try to control the stacks by prioritizing Crushing Blow over Sanction Heretic or Lightning Hammer, you lose dps. There is no incentive toward controlling the stacks and for the most part you are spamming one macro. Increasing the damage from Brutalize would dumb down the spec further and just force you to spam Crushing Blow more, so a better approach will be either proc-based or debuff-based and requiring individual effort for controllable, max dps.

    RNG should play a role in every spec, but it should be limited to the extent that the player can still control and maximize their dps in 99% of situations.

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    Ascendant tro44's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aabuster1 View Post
    Druid: needs to have damage somewhere between Melee/Caster/Pet

    1. Ditch the fairy. Ditch the fairy completely.
    I actually like Faerie. Problem is, I would like better Damage or Far better Utility from her.

    Because Clerics will never get fair damage. Its pointless to ask for this. WoW Paladins come to mind. This is simply the mindset of the Developers. We should build around it. It I dont have nice damage, I at least want to be needed in the group as a dps for something. (again utility)

    problem is Fae healing is too minimal. Need better heals and utilities, especially in PvP.

    Her Damage spell should also heal nearby ally like Mages IMO.

    Lets Go Rift. Hope Archeage can do something next. Lets Save Rift

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    Make serendipity proc from reparation/salvation heals and I'd be thrilled.

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    RIFT Guide Writer TheGrinnz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yirk View Post
    Make serendipity proc from reparation/salvation heals and I'd be thrilled.
    It doesn't already?

    And alternatively, you need more ways to have it already up constantly?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGrinnz View Post
    It doesn't already?

    And alternatively, you need more ways to have it already up constantly?
    Um no. It does have basically a 100% proc rate from DoL and HC though, or really any 10 man heal. So if you need it up for a situation it is rather easy to do so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yirk View Post
    Make serendipity proc from reparation/salvation heals and I'd be thrilled.
    Simplifying specs further, no thanks.

  11. #26
    Plane Touched Myrkel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahov View Post
    I think the current Brutalize mechanic is bad, but it's not incredibly far away from being good. At the moment if you try to control the stacks by prioritizing Crushing Blow over Sanction Heretic or Lightning Hammer, you lose dps. There is no incentive toward controlling the stacks and for the most part you are spamming one macro. Increasing the damage from Brutalize would dumb down the spec further and just force you to spam Crushing Blow more, so a better approach will be either proc-based or debuff-based and requiring individual effort for controllable, max dps.

    RNG should play a role in every spec, but it should be limited to the extent that the player can still control and maximize their dps in 99% of situations.
    If trion extended shamans 4 piece crystal to a talent with 100% uptime like in pyro, there would be little need to change how brutilize works since it would allow for more crushing blows with out sacrificing other abilities.

    However I would like to see more thought be required to run our melee builds then just spaming one button. Jolt and bolt is really where all our specs should be in skill requirement (not that its that difficult but it does require some thought and management).

  12. #27
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    Since I can't sleep I figure I'll jump on the hopes and dreams band-wagon.

    MoA: Go away already. This was a band-aid fix to begin with and it has always been a short term solution to a long term problem. Readjusting our ability coefficients and adjusting some talents to scale spell power/AP more effectively would actually fix our dps long term and would actually scale properly with gear. Also Weapon damage/dps should actually matter for our melee builds. They matter for every other melee class.

    At most MoA should exist in Justicar as a utility option for Icar builds or other spec that don't need to heal/tank at some point during an encounter.

    Shaman:
    Take our 4pc crystal bonus, make it a passive talent that is always up like Spark in the pyro tree.This would actually help make Brutalize more reliable dps while still retaining some RNG factor.

    Rage of the North needs to be rethought, give it a shorter CD or change its functionality to a flat damage increase or make it still give you 100% crit for 7 seconds but also remove/shorten the CD on Jolt.

    Fated Blow is useless in it's current form. Turn it into a <30% off gcd execute ability.

    Who ever had the Heart idea was spot on. Making it a flat resist would be far more useful. Also Courage spells could be looked at like Jaguar: Dex and Str, Bear: End, Eagle: Int and Wis.

    Move Vengeance of the Piercing Cold down the tree so it's accessible to other specs like druid or justicar; or make it not a vengeance and allow it to be another buff shamans put up. No shaman in their right mind would ever use this ability in raid as it is a massive DPS loss that is easily put up by other classes.

    Glacial Shield could scale a lot better with spell power or turn it into some kind of Armor buff like AoT or something.

    Druid:
    Grim Silence: Make this a interrupt or silence/interrupt on a 10-15 sec CD.

    Slumber: This should last 45 seconds and not have a cast time (like BM's calming influence)

    Natural Dedication: This doesn't function well in a raid environment unless you coordinate well with your Archon. Making it a passive ability like Fervor or Living Energy might bring more utility to a raid/group than another 2 minute CD.

    Touch of the Fae: Make this Max HP instead of endurance.

    Shield of Oak: Like Glacial shield, this doesnt scale well at all. Bump its absorb or make it a armor buff.

    I'd like to see more of a actual rotation to druid as well instead of a single macro I bind to everything on my keyboard and proceed to slam my face as hard as i can into said keyboard.

    Cabalist:
    Curse of Solitude should have a 15sec CD.

    Remove Dark Water's cast time or up it's damage.

    Shorten Obliterate's CD by 15 seconds. (IE not have a CD when talented)

    Make Distorted Shadows our go-to ST ability by removing it's CD and upping it's damage some.

    Increase Dark Passage to 15 meters and remove movement impairing effects.

    Warden:
    Still Waters: Deluge should just be a 2 sec cast to begin with. Make it refresh all the clerics HoT's on the target or effect some other aoe heal.

    Cascade should be a 1 minute self only CD.

    Make Tidal Resonance effect all water based heals.

    Remove Healing Cataract's CD or make it instant cast.

    Healing flood should heal 10 targets or heal for more.

    Justicar:
    Doctrine of Bliss/Righteousness: Make these be a conviction dump, have it increase in power for every conviction spent or something.

    Reprieve should be off the GCD and a full heal.

    Censure needs to be 7% and a Clinging Spirit type debuff should also be given to other classes at an equivalent percentage.

    Sentinel and Purifier:
    I'd like to see healing have a bit more thought then just spam X heal. Purifier is reasonable given it's CD flexibility (healers blessing could be redone into a increase healing done ability or something). I'd like to see sentinel have some kind of rotation or benefit from using a fast heal (ie have some kind of spell rotation).

    Other then that I'm not sure what else could be done with out turning this into a full fledged paper.
    Last edited by Myrkel; 08-24-2012 at 03:12 AM.

  13. #28
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    It's slow today so meh i'll work on responding just for fun.


    Quote Originally Posted by Myrkel View Post
    Since I can't sleep I figure I'll jump on the hopes and dreams band-wagon.

    MoA: Go away already. This was a band-aid fix to begin with and it has always been a short term solution to a long term problem. Readjusting our ability coefficients and adjusting some talents to scale spell power/AP more effectively would actually fix our dps long term and would actually scale properly with gear. Also Weapon damage/dps should actually matter for our melee builds. They matter for every other melee class.
    Agreed, I hope it goes away in SL and our base damage + scaling is greatly improved.

    Shaman:
    Take our 4pc crystal bonus, make it a passive talent that is always up like Spark in the pyro tree.This would actually help make Brutalize more reliable dps while still retaining some RNG factor.
    Agreed completely, I still never understood why we had to get a crystal to get what pyros get 100% of the time just part of the time.
    Rage of the North needs to be rethought, give it a shorter CD or change its functionality to a flat damage increase or make it still give you 100% crit for 7 seconds but also remove/shorten the CD on Jolt.
    Yep. 100% crit rate isn't that good anymore, it needs to be reworked.
    Fated Blow is useless in it's current form. Turn it into a <30% off gcd execute ability.
    All these "if you miss" abilities/reactives are completely useless in game so I agree.

    Who ever had the Heart idea was spot on. Making it a flat resist would be far more useful. Also Courage spells could be looked at like Jaguar: Dex and Str, Bear: End, Eagle: Int and Wis.
    It would be nice if these stacked in raid but i'm assuming that would be too much.

    Druid:
    Grim Silence: Make this a interrupt or silence/interrupt on a 10-15 sec CD.
    Slumber: This should last 45 seconds and not have a cast time (like BM's calming influence)
    Agreed.
    Natural Dedication: This doesn't function well in a raid environment unless you coordinate well with your Archon. Making it a passive ability like Fervor or Living Energy might bring more utility to a raid/group than another 2 minute CD.
    Yeah. I would settle for something that stacked with all raid buffs that only lasted like 10 seconds even, rather than its current form which is effectively useless.

    I'd like to see more of a actual rotation to druid as well instead of a single macro I bind to everything on my keyboard and proceed to slam my face as hard as i can into said keyboard.
    They did say they wanted to get away from this and I hope so especially with shaman and druid builds they are the epitome of mindless rotations.
    Warden:
    Still Waters: Deluge should just be a 2 sec cast to begin with. Make it refresh all the clerics HoT's on the target or effect some other aoe heal.
    Yeah, the underlined would be an amazing change for this.
    Healing flood should heal 10 targets or heal for more.
    Yeah the fact it is only 5 targets boggles my mind, it isn't even enough to good to justify only 5.
    Justicar:
    Doctrine of Bliss/Righteousness: Make these be a conviction dump, have it increase in power for every conviction spent or something.
    Even with that i'm not sure they would be that useful, only time I use Bliss is if my healer is dead in a t2 and I try to eek out a little extra HPS onto myself.
    Reprieve should be off the GCD and a full heal.
    Yes...please. Its frustrating that even with Resplendant Embrace active is a very sad heal.
    Censure needs to be 7% and a Clinging Spirit type debuff should also be given to other classes at an equivalent percentage.
    Yep, no clue why Censure has been left useless for such a long time, I am happy they changed it to not stack with CS though. Give CS to mages...harbringer soul!!!

    In conclusion, I agree with most points, they highlight a lot of the issues in our current souls.
    Last edited by Bluelightt; 08-24-2012 at 05:53 AM.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myrkel View Post
    Stuff
    Pretty much agree with everything outlined here, probably because we share the same mumble and have convinced ourselves that these will all work fine in practice.

    Since I predominantly heal in Rift, I'd like to expand a bit more on my hopes for the pure healing trees, particularly focusing on tank heals.

    I think having three pure healing trees is awesome, and can allow for three different styles of tank healing in a raid environment. Sadly, tank healing in Rift turned into 51puri = winmode for almost every single encounter. I'd really like to see different options in Storm Legion, especially in cases where you have 2 tank healing clerics in your raid setup.

    Purifier:

    Awesome tree, only a few minor things such as healing blessing, searing transfusion, and blessing of the flame that might need tweaking.

    However...

    The shielding passive at 36+ points is ridiculous, and I hope it is taken into consideration for the expansion. 61 points into purifier could end up limiting our opportunities to react if the 7.5% shielding-per-point goes through unchecked. As healers, the only thing we see is the hp bar, the shielding amount is invisible to us. As shielding becomes a bigger and bigger part of a tank's equivalent health, raid encounters are balanced to have spikier and spikier main tank damage. We've already seen some attacks that exceed the total HP of a fully geared tank in ID, so what is the next step up in Storm Legion going to be?

    You can't 'react' to a tank taking 120% of their hp in damage. Tanks won't have a chance to use their full heal, the senticars won't be able to pop that TTL+HI, and the chloros won't be able to pop that essence surge if the tank can be 1-shot at any moment by damage balanced around a 50k-equivalent hp tank that only has a 30k hp bar visible.

    210% ancestral flame shielding would make main tank healing less dynamic, and therefore less fun.


    Sentinel:

    This tree could use a minor overhaul.

    Shards of light should become a viable conviction builder, let us us channel it on the run or something.

    Why does walk in the light affect our damage? Why does almost every dps build have to include 10 points in a pure-healing tree just for these ridiculous dps passives? 5% SP + 20% crit bonus comes with a free instant-cast heal... to me it seems just as ridiculous as rogue dps builds utilizing riftstalker passives. Move these passives into one of our 4 (or possibly soon 5) dps souls please.

    Make vigilance a full heal outside of pvp.

    Remove lasting invocation, and replace it with a mitigation buff of 5% for single target sentinel heals with 5/5 points spent. Make this buff stack with everything. Give people a reason to go full sentinel for MT healing. My dream world is having a 61puri + 61sent + either 61chloro or 61warden being the best possible mt heal combo for raiding in Storm Legion, as well as purisent/sentward hybrids still being viable.

    Remove the 7% mitigation talent from purifier synergy crystals. Purifier is the shielding healer. Sentinel should be the mitigation healer, look at Healer's covenant and protect the flock for example. A mitigation-on-heal passive in the sentinel tree can give clerics many more options for both 61-point sentinel builds and hybrid sentinel builds (purisents/sentiwards).

    This should leave warden as the top raw HPSer for tank healing. Given that warden has far less utility than a chloro and far more complexity in its rotation, why can't it be the clearly outright best single-target hps soul of Rift?


    Warden:

    Clearly delineate warden pvp and warden pve healing. This seems to be the root of most of warden's problems. I'm all for pvp-specific debuffs if it means pve healing can be balanced competitively.

    Reduce reliance on a 15% healing buff from the synergy crystal by giving the base heal amounts a proper boost.

    Either double cascade's mana return or cut the cooldown on it by half.

    Perhaps give wardens a threat-immunity or threat-dump cooldown, so clerics are more willing to use wardens on pug dungeon runs.

    In summary:

    I want to see the boat rocked. There is alpha + beta to see whether overhauls work or not. The playerbase is probably even willing to accept some noticeable, but minor, imbalances to classes/callings during version 2.0 to be fixed for version 2.1.

  15. #30
    Plane Touched Myrkel's Avatar
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    Warden:
    I've always seen Warden being a raid healing soul with tank support via soothing stream. The problem with warden healing is there's to much time and not much healing.

    If Healing Flood and Healing spray did the same amount of healing but had half the duration they would be far more effective heals.

    To clarify: Healing Flood should hit 10 targets and heal for say around 3k overall at 50 (much like a crit DoL does) but do so over a 4-6 second time span. This still gives a HoT effect but allows warden to compete in the burst arena. It's not going to be ideal, nor should it, but it should be able to effectively compensate or back up a senticar healer. When you look at fights like Ituziel or even Rusila, a warden healer could be the go to build for encounters with this type of damage output. Ituziel specifically is kind of clumsy and inefficient for a senticar build to heal. This model would also make Healing Spray an effective spot heal or good burst heal in conjunction with ripple.

    This change would also break deep warden builds reliance on healing communion and put more emphasis on healing cataract for quick burst healing.

    This leaves soothing stream and healing current as our long hots for tank healing support. Changing Deluge to refresh hots would allow a warden to support a tank healer while still being able to manage hots on the rest of the raid.

    Orbs are another spell which could be tweaked some as well. Them having a CD and a cast time is slightly redundant, while removing the CD would probably make the spells far to powerful, removing their cast time wouldn't.

    Sentinel:
    I like sentinels general flow as far as point distribution, its largely a support soul for our other healing builds and a raid healing soul in the bottom half to two-thirds of the tree. It meshes well like this with other souls and really brings out what hybrid healing should be. However Deep sent is lacking greatly, with the 36pt passive It should be a tank healing build with large emphasis on large, quick tank heals. However it's not very effective at this in it's current form. Seeing some kind of talents high up in the tree that give greater boons to tank healing while leaving the bottom of the tree more centered around raid healing and hybrid builds is really how this tree should flow.

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