The Racism is killing me (classist vs clerics)

[Lighteyes]

That makes ..... No sense. A rogue surviving a long time still means he still needs a healer at some point. When would a cleric tank need a seperate one in this situation? Oh! That's right! He doesn't as he is tank healing himself.

let me explain it another way:

Rogue and cleric tanks have *roughly* the same HP
Rogue takes 1000 damage over 10 seconds (after all mitigation is said and done)
Cleric takes 1250 damage over 10 seconds and self-heals for 250

Which one has the greater survival?


I find it interesting how the size of your group keeps getting smaller and smaller. "Can" a cleric self-heal their way through a T1 expert? yes, if they are in HK or better gear and use an edgecase spec that is good for nothing else. But in that level of gear, so can a rogue tank with rift scavenger and adds. Heck I would bet that a warrior with paly and reaver heals could likely survive a T1 expert boss as well when they are rocking HK relics/ID gear too.

[TheGrinnz]

let me explain it another way:

Rogue and cleric tanks have *roughly* the same HP
Rogue takes 1000 damage over 10 seconds (after all mitigation is said and done)
Cleric takes 1250 damage over 10 seconds and self-heals for 250

Which one has the greater survival?


I find it interesting how the size of your group keeps getting smaller and smaller. "Can" a cleric self-heal their way through a T1 expert? yes, if they are in HK or better gear and use an edgecase spec that is good for nothing else. But in that level of gear, so can a rogue tank with rift scavenger and adds. Heck I would bet that a warrior with paly and reaver heals could likely survive a T1 expert boss as well when they are rocking HK relics/ID gear too.

or from another perspective, there's a reason Purifier is needed in ID and not Warden. Similarly Rift Guard > self healing.

But a cleric can self heal through an expert with a full tank spec, just sayin.

[NearioNL]

hihi this thread is sooooooo much fun guys! go on really, people are to stubborn its fantastic xD.

[Byona]

Or from another perspective, the subject is Cleric DPS not tanking nor healing

[Blytzz]

This has been the most entertaining thread in months! Thank you to all that have participated!

[Efaicia]

So, to get an idea of what has changed with cleric in the past year that I have been gone, I have spent a couple days parsing on dummies and running instances and raiding, all in different specs and visiting the "most popular" specs @ zam, instead of taking up the same old argument where I left off with things having changed that I hadn't taken into consideration, which has just frustrated me, (and others I'm sure) to no end.

My opinion has changed. Single target DPS indeed needs a boost. Aoe dps needs to be left alone. Aoe healing, single target healing needs to be left alone. However!! There needs to be a CLEAR CUT difference between a healing cleric, a tanking cleric and a dps cleric (aoe or single target). A tanking or dps (whether aoe dps or single target dps) should in NO WAY ever even come close to the heals of a healing cleric.

In order to bring single target up to where it needs to be, aoe heals with DoL and reparation from the "Icar" builds need to be severely nerfed. Or put in a place where a "dps" cleric with even 34 points in ONLY a dps soul has no access (or very limited access) to DoL OR reperation.

With both of those abilities being easily reached @ just 12 points in justicar that leaves plenty of points to go 51 and then some into dps trees thereby becoming a "dps" cleric, with insane aoe healing abilities too easy to reach.

12 Justicar is ALREADY a mandatory in every single cleric build, doesn't matter what it is labeled. I think that is where Cleric needs to begin and then there will be no argument as to whether or not cleric is deserving of a single target dps boost.

[Efaicia]

Just to add (because 5 minute timer ran out)

In your average, everyday, normal, run of the mill, (not bleeding edge) raiding guild, clerics and mages have the majority of spots, the most recent of raids I have joined is always 3 rogues (including me as bard) 3 warriors and the rest an even split of mages and clerics. Which tells me, the average population of both of those classes outnumbers those of warriors And rogues.

[Calibrex]

From my experiences and what others have posted in this thread and seen elsewhere in the recruiting threads, Clerics are a bit on the short side.


Regarding to differentiating the different roles of clerics, for the most part they are different. If a 51 inq/10sent/5cab cleric drops sent & cab to pick up 14 justicar, that is a huge dps loss. Also, when 14 justicar, there is a very large difference in Single target DPS and AoE healing when stance dancing (changing Meins) not only to mention wasting 1-2 GCDs.

AoE dmg does need to be looked at. As Cab is the aoe spec, but has no single target; whereas, other classes with a similar role can put out the same AoE dps, if not more, and have competitive single target dps too.

[Solisto]

Just to add (because 5 minute timer ran out)

In your average, everyday, normal, run of the mill, (not bleeding edge) raiding guild, clerics and mages have the majority of spots, the most recent of raids I have joined is always 3 rogues (including me as bard) 3 warriors and the rest an even split of mages and clerics. Which tells me, the average population of both of those classes outnumbers those of warriors And rogues.

The reason (imho) most clerics end up in your not cleared HK, or just into ID guilds is because clerics just don't get the spots in the high end progression guilds.

I would make one change to cleric AoE. Give it more ST damage. By that I mean Cabilist (not cabicar) is lower AoE AND ST than the rogues Sab and I'm pretty sure it's lower than stormcaller on both accounts. I'm not asking for a boost in the AoE of Cab, just make it be able to do a little higher ST dps.

[TheGrinnz]

Regarding to differentiating the different roles of clerics, for the most part they are different. If a 51 inq/10sent/5cab cleric drops sent & cab to pick up 14 justicar, that is a huge dps loss. Also, when 14 justicar, there is a very large difference in Single target DPS and AoE healing when stance dancing (changing Meins) not only to mention wasting 1-2 GCDs.

From the perspective of my cleric that is just getting into T2 raid level, there really is not a huge dps loss going 14 justicar from the full 51 inq build. Certainly not enough to balance the incredible AoE healing you can get out of it, plus more RM tank healing through dps. Of course it uses GCDs up for DoL but it still feels unbalanced. Cabicar is even closer to full cab. At full ID gear the difference may be more but at my level inquisicar is incredibly powerful.

[cokronk]

So, to get an idea of what has changed with cleric in the past year that I have been gone, I have spent a couple days parsing on dummies and running instances and raiding, all in different specs and visiting the "most popular" specs @ zam, instead of taking up the same old argument where I left off with things having changed that I hadn't taken into consideration, which has just frustrated me, (and others I'm sure) to no end.

My opinion has changed. Single target DPS indeed needs a boost. Aoe dps needs to be left alone. Aoe healing, single target healing needs to be left alone. However!! There needs to be a CLEAR CUT difference between a healing cleric, a tanking cleric and a dps cleric (aoe or single target). A tanking or dps (whether aoe dps or single target dps) should in NO WAY ever even come close to the heals of a healing cleric.

This post tells me you don't know your class. You're saying that "Aoe healing needs to be left alone but a hybrid healer should in no way ever even com close to the heals of a healing cleric." AOE healing in a pure healing spec is broke with most all AOE healing spells only targeting 5 people and taking a large amount of mana to do so. To nerf the icar hybrids so that their healing didn't even come close to what a pure healing spec cleric can do without changing a thing to the pure healing spec AOE healer would give us no viable AOE healing spec. If you knew how to cleric, you'd realise this unless you're only doing 5 man and 10 man content. So in your next 20 man raid T2 raid, tell all your clerics not to use an icar spec and see how that affects your raid heals.

In order to bring single target up to where it needs to be, aoe heals with DoL and reparation from the "Icar" builds need to be severely nerfed. Or put in a place where a "dps" cleric with even 34 points in ONLY a dps soul has no access (or very limited access) to DoL OR reperation.

As above, this will severely break our class. Then we'll be crying for an AOE healing spec since mages will be the only viable AOE healers in the game.

With both of those abilities being easily reached @ just 12 points in justicar that leaves plenty of points to go 51 and then some into dps trees thereby becoming a "dps" cleric, with insane aoe healing abilities too easy to reach.

12 Justicar is ALREADY a mandatory in every single cleric build, doesn't matter what it is labeled. I think that is where Cleric needs to begin and then there will be no argument as to whether or not cleric is deserving of a single target dps boost.

False. My main job is tank so most of my gear is tank gear. Even going up against some ID geared guildies with HK gear and just 400 hit, I'm in the top three on the meter with a 35/21/10 Inq/Sha/Sen. Oh wait, I must be a hybrid healer with the Sentinel though...nope, too busy DPSing in a spec that has no Justicar. We can do DPS, you just have to learn your class.

So what's the most DPS you've ever pulled in a parse and how much higher are the rest of your guild mates. I only have a little under 2050 spell power and a smidgen of crit (650-700 I think) and I can easily pull 2.5K on most bosses in HK. I'd definitely be pulling more if I was geared to do DPS and not to tank.

[TheGrinnz]

This post tells me you don't know your class. You're saying that "Aoe healing needs to be left alone but a hybrid healer should in no way ever even com close to the heals of a healing cleric." AOE healing in a pure healing spec is broke with most all AOE healing spells only targeting 5 people and taking a large amount of mana to do so. To nerf the icar hybrids so that their healing didn't even come close to what a pure healing spec cleric can do without changing a thing to the pure healing spec AOE healer would give us no viable AOE healing spec. If you knew how to cleric, you'd realise this unless you're only doing 5 man and 10 man content. So in your next 20 man raid T2 raid, tell all your clerics not to use an icar spec and see how that affects your raid heals.



As above, this will severely break our class. Then we'll be crying for an AOE healing spec since mages will be the only viable AOE healers in the game.

This tells me there's something wrong with the healing souls more than anything else.

[Eughe]

From the perspective of my cleric that is just getting into T2 raid level, there really is not a huge dps loss going 14 justicar from the full 51 inq build.

You are looking 5% SP, another 5% sp increase and 20% crit damage, to gain absolutely no damage increase. Its noticeable.

Certainly not enough to balance the incredible AoE healing you can get out of it, plus more RM tank healing through dps.

For one, i wouldnt use 51 inqui for raid and RM healing. But RM heals are nothing, not with an inqui, so i wouldnt factor in that as a basis. But the overall dps loss due to stats, and then the loss of dps due to healing, is more than enough balance.

Cabicar is even closer to full cab. At full ID gear the difference may be more but at my level inquisicar is incredibly powerful.

I dont think anyone said it wasnt powerful in pve, as it has its uses. But that has nothing to do with someone going full dps.

But put it this way. If you see no real difference going inqisicar, and full dps inq, isnt that a problem?

[TheGrinnz]

You are looking 5% SP, another 5% sp increase and 20% crit damage, to gain absolutely no damage increase. Its noticeable.



For one, i wouldnt use 51 inqui for raid and RM healing. But RM heals are nothing, not with an inqui, so i wouldnt factor in that as a basis. But the overall dps loss due to stats, and then the loss of dps due to healing, is more than enough balance.


I dont think anyone said it wasnt powerful in pve, as it has its uses. But that has nothing to do with someone going full dps.

But put it this way. If you see no real difference going inqisicar, and full dps inq, isnt that a problem?

I am talking about 42/14/10 inq/just/sent. This does not lose the 20% crit bonus or 5% sp from full inq, on top of that it makes use of the 20% crit (?) healing bonus from sentinel as well. So the difference in DPS is strictly from lower damage of SH and Vex, and the loss of Nysyr's Rebuke.

It is a problem that the builds are so close in DPS. But if you just raise the DPS ability of inquisitor, then Inquisicar will have the same close DPS potential along with even stronger healing potential. Making DoL less accessible or perhaps just weaker until you get 26-30 points in Justicar, would mean that you can increase the DPS of DPS specs without creating even more powerful hybrids.

[Ivengar]

I am talking about 42/14/10 inq/just/sent. This does not lose the 20% crit bonus or 5% sp from full inq, on top of that it makes use of the 20% crit (?) healing bonus from sentinel as well. So the difference in DPS is strictly from lower damage of SH and Vex, and the loss of Nysyr's Rebuke.

It is a problem that the builds are so close in DPS. But if you just raise the DPS ability of inquisitor, then Inquisicar will have the same close DPS potential along with even stronger healing potential. Making DoL less accessible or perhaps just weaker until you get 26-30 points in Justicar, would mean that you can increase the DPS of DPS specs without creating even more powerful hybrids.

So as a quick fix is to make the 36 passive in all our DPS souls (druid/inq/sham/cab) give a 20% DPS boost but at the same time a direct 20% less heal to just DOL. Since it seem DOL is the only spell everyone is worried about. This way all the icar specs that dont go to the 36 points mark will work as is and all the DPS builds would get a boost. The JnB spec would change by 1 points as going 36 inq would be better than 35 but other than that you should see a 20% bump in all DPS builds with out any change to any of the icar or other healing builds.