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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: Crit, less is more?

  1. #1
    Ascendant Zehne's Avatar
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    Default Crit, less is more?

    So, not sure if it's just a bug, or multiple bad parses, but to sum it up.

    I made a crit heavy Machine for my joltnbolt spec.

    I did testing of dps parses with both my old machine(typical wis/sp based machine), and the new crit core

    To sum up the hard facts real quick, this isn't about the dps.(although the crit machine parsed consistently 100-200dps lower)

    Normal core
    2209 sp
    852 sc (37.3% crit self buffed)
    (Adorned Shadeshard)

    Crit core
    2152 sp
    1027 sc (43.94% crit self buffed)

    out of all the parses, i saw the sp core parsing higher, so i investigated, to my surprise, there was one thing that was consistant

    Now, i did multiple 4 minute parses to test dps on dummies, used a consistant rotation, minus the procs of SH/BoP

    The results;
    My sp core had higher crit rate than the crit core!

    Each parse had about 500 attacks recorded in the parse, of which the sp core was consistantly 1-2% crit rate lower than the 37% that the stats page reads, which is kinda surprising, since inquisitors innerfocus should put all damage spells another 5% higher than that!

    more surprising was to find that the crit core, which says i should have 6% more crits, i actually got ~~2% less crits than the sp core!

    Needless to say, that's a HUGE difference. take 43.94% crit chance from stats page, add 5% from inner focus, your at what should be 48.94% crit chance on damage spells. (only thing not a spell in my rotation was lightning hammer, depending on what it's considered). Take my actual crit rate over about 500 spells done multiple times, it came out to about 33% crit rate. while the sp core came out to about 35% crits.

    48.94%-33%= ~~15%

    i don't have to be a genius to realize that either i have some really bad luck with RNG, or that over a long parse, there is a problem with the actual generation of crits, no matter how bad my luck is, i shouldn't see a 30% difference between the crits i get, and the crits it says i should get. (33%/49%)

    So, the question stands now, is there just a coding bug, or am i just that unlucky.

  2. #2
    Ascendant Zehne's Avatar
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    On another note:

    I did some more testing this time i used circle of oblivion on 3 targets for 3 mins straight, another 500 registered hits on targets.

    sp core parsed ~~43% crits
    crit core parsed ~~48% crits

    more in line with that it should be, sp core actually above the expected margin, crit core slightly below the expected margin.

    so is it just individual abilities that don't work right?

  3. #3
    RIFT Guide Writer Bowler Hat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zehne View Post
    So, the question stands now, is there just a coding bug, or am i just that unlucky.
    Just unlucky. RNG is RNG. I'd suggest your parses are perhaps too short, ideally you want at least 5 parses of at least 6-8 minutes on a clean undebuffed dummy. That last bit is important as lots of other classes have debuffs that will affect your parse. Also take note of Prismatic Glory type buffs. For best results remove trinkets and weapons that have on chance proc effects. You should then discard your outliers before analyising the results. You may need to use mana pots. I used to run 6 x 10minute parses and get highly frustrated if someone came and debuffed the dummy at 9 minutes

    Also it helps to post parse data when talking about parses
    Good Luck!

  4. #4
    Rift Disciple
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    Hmm, this is strange indeed. To be sure whether it is RNG or not you need more testing with single target dmg abilities. BUT if this is indeed a bug, it could explain so many things...

  5. #5
    Ascendant Zehne's Avatar
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    So i'd have to upload the parse data later, but from a 10minute parse:
    1346 attacks 526crits, 39.08% crit rate with the crit core on

    also, regardless if lightning hammer is considered a melee attack, or a spell, it would benefit from +5% crit chance from either inner focus or unyielding.

    so, i should have about 48.94% chance to crit in that gear, from what the stats page tells me(43.94% +5% from innerfocus/unyielding for any attack i use)

    yet, still i parsed only 39% crits, higher than the 3 min parses of single target that registered about 33% crits, but it's still almost 10% less than what i should be getting.

    no matter how much i test this, or how long i test it for, i doubt it's purely just RNG, that is a huge deviance from the crit% i should be at. ~~50% crit, only getting ~~40%, you could say i'm only getting about 80% worth out of my crit chance. which is a HUGE dps loss for joltnbolt.

  6. #6
    Soulwalker
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    Symbol of Corruption tics will never naturally crit so they will bring your crit % down on the parse if you're just looking at overall.

  7. #7
    Prophet of Telara cwharland's Avatar
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    Don't look at overall just look at single ability hits (like BoJ or Jolt) and tell us the crit percentage on those.
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  8. #8
    MNM
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hakedli View Post
    Symbol of Corruption tics will never naturally crit so they will bring your crit % down on the parse if you're just looking at overall.
    Sure? I thought they could crit but always have a 0% crit bonus?

  9. #9
    RIFT Guide Writer Bowler Hat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zehne View Post
    no matter how much i test this, or how long i test it for, i doubt it's purely just RNG, that is a huge deviance from the crit% i should be at. ~~50% crit, only getting ~~40%, you could say i'm only getting about 80% worth out of my crit chance. which is a HUGE dps loss for joltnbolt.
    I'm going to assume you are using the ACT parser and that you are fixated on the total overall crit percentage. There are a couple of things wrong with this approach, first DOT's can only ever crit on their first tick, all subsequent ticks are normal hits. Second, some abilities such as VotWS cannot crit. Both of these factors will skew your overall crit percentage.

    Have a look at the crit rate on some individual abilities instead. You should see numbers closer to what you are expecting.

  10. #10
    Ascendant Zehne's Avatar
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    Eh, it seems to be somewhat correct i guess.

    took a look at symbol of corruption(after finding a dps meter that would show it, and individually nuked targets with bolt of depravity).

    So, the first tick of symbol of corruption is a crit, then all other ticks are counted as non crits, however, all ticks will hit for the crit dmg of first tick.

    so that would lower the % i guess, but dmg is still upped by crit%

  11.   This is the last Rift Team post in this thread.   #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bowler Hat View Post
    DOT's can only ever crit on their first tick, all subsequent ticks are normal hits.
    Normal DoTs such as Vex can crit on any tick, not just the first. Each tick is re-rolled individually, allowing some ticks to crit while others do not.

  12. #12
    Ascendant the_real_seebs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zinbik View Post
    Normal DoTs such as Vex can crit on any tick, not just the first. Each tick is re-rolled individually, allowing some ticks to crit while others do not.
    Looong ago, it used to be that the whole dot would either crit or not-crit. And it also used to be that abilities which "refreshed" a DoT increased its duration without resetting this. And lo, it came to pass that Lingering Pain was disabled. And one of the devs got a [Warlock Tear] for his collection.
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    RIFT Guide Writer Bowler Hat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zinbik View Post
    Normal DoTs such as Vex can crit on any tick, not just the first. Each tick is re-rolled individually, allowing some ticks to crit while others do not.
    Ah thanks for the clarification.

    edit:
    I'm not sure where I picked up the misconception, possibly from damaging abilities like Sanction Heretic that have a secondary DOT component. As I understand it if SH crits then the first tick of Sanction will also crit, I am unsure if subsequent Sanction ticks get their own crit chance, the above suggests they do.
    Last edited by Bowler Hat; 07-10-2012 at 08:10 PM.

  14. #14
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bowler Hat View Post
    There are a couple of things wrong with this approach, first DOT's can only ever crit on their first tick, all subsequent ticks are normal hits
    Please be a troll. please....

  15. #15
    Telaran glanomol's Avatar
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    My calculations show you should be at about a 70dps difference at your stats(not including the adorned shadeshard) Your crit core should be pulling more dps.
    I don't remember what the equivalent sp the shadeshard was worth but it is much less than the bis lessers.
    I expect you are doing something wrong. Looks like you are adding in abilities that cannot crit such as VotWS and ticks of BOD dot. Also looks like you are not using Armor of Awakening, which is a big mistake.

    Furthermore, I'm estimating that you would have around 2600sp and around crit soft cap when raid buffed. This puts you at valuing crit at about 1.75crit = 1 sp, assuming you are close too but havent hit soft cap.
    This is assuming that you were using a powerstone and no other buffs/pots/food when at 2152sp/1027crit
    Last edited by glanomol; 07-10-2012 at 06:41 PM.
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