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Thread: PA cleanse and heal debuffs

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    Ascendant Byona's Avatar
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    Default PA cleanse and heal debuffs

    When the PA cleanse ability was passive it was deemed OP, because it required no skill and the cleric is not even thinking about it while they passively cleanse. Now the question is, why isnt healing debuffs deemed OP for the same reason? why ist ok for rogues and warriors to apply healing debuffs passively without thinking about it but it wasnt ok for us to cleanse it passively?

    I believe healing debuffs should be a skill that requires GCD just like cleanse, so if they want to spam debuff and we spam cleanse theres no dmg incoming, no heal incoming. In its current state we sometimes have to spam cleanse to remove that fellblades over and over again while it keeps coming right back up while they are dpsing that whole time, in the end we end up having to ignore it and heal through or else we die.
    Last edited by Byona; 07-08-2012 at 07:11 AM.
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    Champion Bionitro's Avatar
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    +1

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    Plane Touched Valarion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Byona View Post
    When the PA cleanse ability was passive it was deemed OP, because it required no skill and the cleric is not even thinking about it while they passively cleanse. Now the question is, why isnt healing debuffs deemed OP for the same reason? why ist ok for rogues and warriors to apply healing debuffs passively without thinking about it but it wasnt ok for us to cleanse it passively?

    I believe healing debuffs should be a skill that requires GCD just like cleanse, so if they want to spam debuff and we spam cleanse theres no dmg incoming, no heal incoming. In its current state we sometimes have to spam cleanse to remove that fellblades over and over again while it keeps coming right back up while they are dpsing that whole time, in the end we end up having to ignore it and heal through or else we die.
    Heal debuffs really need a complete revamping.

    To prohibit perma-spamming: They need to be placed on much longer CDs with shorter cooldowns. Constant passive debuffs (i.e. on-crit) need to be severely limited or placed on diminishing returns.

    To reward intelligent, competitive players (who monitor buffs): They need to be made cleansable, but I'm not holding my breath with the trends I've seen in this game so far.

    Trion is convinced they need to see healing clerics killed, until we have all moved to dps, rerolled or left the game.

    Dont get me started on Heal Interrupt (aka fell Blades) either. I'm now totally convinced the Trion devs are playing rogues now.

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    Ascendant Eughe's Avatar
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    Because there is only 1 healer dev while the rest are dps.

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    Well you can't give the passives diminishing returns because for the warrior one you would simply be immune in 3 seconds. The answer would be an internal CD on all of the passives (IMHO). I've given up on pvp in RIFT because most of the fights are just stupid short. I've watched warriors just roll up on people and kill them in 2-3 GCD's (regularly). If that's fun to most/some people then so be it. It's not for me, but if that's what people like then go for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Valarion View Post
    The hardest part for Trion is going to be acknowledging there even is a problem.
    Basically this. Trion has showed, for some time now, that they care less and less about healing effectiveness and strategy in pvp, and more about do the dps feel they can zerg mindlessly fast enough. Until this attitude changes, pvp in this game will never see balance.

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    Point: Is it really only 1 rogue giving you that debuff or is it the fact that there are so many rogues in wf's around that its going off from each of them, and you are being affected repeatedly that way?

    Think about it..........

    Its not always 'some - 1 - thing' being OP.

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    Ascendant Kyera's Avatar
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    I think VM and FB are fine, because a) they can be purged (though Purge access has to increase and spammables like Erad need to get dialed back) and b) they can be cleansed. They could probably take a hit to their % (40%, 35%) since they're still "passive" heal debuffs. The actives are pretty much all fine. Lingering Wounds is the elephant in the heal debuff room.
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    why isnt healing debuffs deemed OP for the same reason?
    I was under the impression they are deemed OP but as the majority of PvPers appear to be Rogues & Warriors, Trion have just left it alone.


    I don't understand why the healing debuffs that require you to think & use a GCD on are inferior to those that are passively applied.

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    If they start reducing the effectiveness of healing debuffs you'd have to wonder why they don't just revert the warden nerf instead.

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    Ascendant Byona's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaszar View Post
    Point: Is it really only 1 rogue giving you that debuff or is it the fact that there are so many rogues in wf's around that its going off from each of them, and you are being affected repeatedly that way?

    Think about it..........

    Its not always 'some - 1 - thing' being OP.
    It is 1 rogue. I've seen it happen in places like Vault, where i cleanse it then its up right away, then i cleanse it then i get to do 1 heal then its up again. eventually you just ignore it and heal through it.

    But even if its more than 1 rogue, that is not the argument here, the argument is that our passive cleanse was deemed OP because it was being done without the intention of the player, without skill. Why is it not deemed OP for warriors and rogues doing the same thing without skill or intention of the player? Its the same concept, yet different treatment from Trion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyera View Post
    I think VM and FB are fine, because a) they can be purged (though Purge access has to increase and spammables like Erad need to get dialed back) and b) they can be cleansed. They could probably take a hit to their % (40%, 35%) since they're still "passive" heal debuffs. The actives are pretty much all fine. Lingering Wounds is the elephant in the heal debuff room.
    Alright then, let them give us a buff that can be purged that does passive cleansing then. but instead they just removed that ability because it was OP for doing it passively.

    Besides there is still the argument of warriors doing it passively but never nerfed by Trion.
    Last edited by Byona; 07-09-2012 at 07:47 AM.
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    Plane Touched Valarion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaszar View Post
    Point: Is it really only 1 rogue giving you that debuff or is it the fact that there are so many rogues in wf's around that its going off from each of them, and you are being affected repeatedly that way?

    Think about it..........

    Its not always 'some - 1 - thing' being OP.
    Very good point. Its not just Rogues and it is not just the debuffs . Its actually a combined "whammy" of:
    • Low number of average healers HEALING in WFs
    • High number of players dps-ing in WFs
    • BIG buffs to DPS (Sabs, Sins, MMs, Warriors and even Mages)
    • BIG Nerfs to Clerics (Primarily Warden, but Sentinel, Justicar took hits and the removal of Templar murdered some of us)

    But really it comes down to: Time to Live (TTL) is totally out of wack when compared to the survival of other games. AND making more and more skills uncleansable and passive (again rewards bad players playing badly imo)

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    So true.... So many good posts but no response. At least "hey thanks, we know this is an issue but we'll get to it when we get to it". What options do we have to get a hold on Trion? I propose an open letter to lead designer. Thoughts?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Valarion View Post
    Dont get me started on Heal Interrupt (aka fell Blades) either. I'm now totally convinced the Trion devs are playing rogues now.
    Fell Blades isn't a heal interrupt. Its a siphon, and as I'm hoping your aware its completely cleanse-able, just like Void Shroud, Priests' lament, Blight, Anathema, Vampiric Munition's. If you watch your buffs before spamming a heal you can wipe them first. Lingering wounds is the only non-cleanable healing debuff (to my knowledge). They are all skills that a rogue or warrior must spec into. I think that Lingering Wounds should be cleanable as well. My only complaint about those skills is the high-proc rate. All of my mage healing debuff's are active cast, i.e. I choose when to apply them. I can understand that the rogue and warrior ones are procc'ed with the exception of Anathema which is cast, I just wish they were not so easily applied. They are necessary though. Most full geared healing classes are almost unkillable without a healing debuff.

    If any of you remember they Devs made Lingering Wounds cleanable for about 3 days. The warrior community had such a suck attack they Trion reverted it within a week. I wish they would do that for my "overload" or Stealth Detect skill.
    Last edited by The Ic0N; 07-09-2012 at 09:10 AM.
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    General of Telara Hawkmoon0028's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Ic0N View Post
    If any of you remember they Devs made Lingering Wounds cleanable for about 3 days. The warrior community had such a suck attack they Trion reverted it within a week. I wish they would do that for my "overload" or Stealth Detect skill.
    You bring up a really interesting point here, and one that seems to carry throughout both PvP and PvE: the class that shouts the loudest seems to get what they want, overall.

    Sadly for clerics, our Dev seems to actually have an idea of what balance is, whereas the other Devs do not. This is where the problem lies. It is not an issue of clerics being hugely imbalanced(although I believe some rebalancing is needed); it is an issue of the other classes all being imbalanced.

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