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Thread: Normalise DPS Roles

  1. #1
    Shield of Telara jaal's Avatar
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    Default Normalise DPS Roles

    First off this is more about DPS cleircs, im not greatly knowledgeable about the healing souls. Anyway.. at the moment I feel that we are pigeonholed into going 51 points into a spec, and those 51 points are usually followed with the rest thrown in Inquisitor and it has been this way for quite some time now. Sure there are exceptions (JnB) but generally this is the way it is and there are a few reasons for it which I am going to discuss.

    In an ideal world the more points you invest in a soul the more proficient you become at fulfilling its task and this should happen via direct correlation, however in our souls there is usually an area where you go from cleric boy, to cleric man and unless you spec this far your wasting points. This is because the way you get spells in roles is not constant; you get bread and butter spells at the begging of a soul and then the “game changing” spells at the end. This means if you have specced deep into a tree (say 36 points) if you go into another tree you are missing out on the “money” spells and getting a whole load of new bread and butter spells that you don’t want / need. The same goes with talent points, the points deeper in the tree’s give you important things for your class and not speccing into them and replacing it with “increase your attack power by 1/2/3/4/5” is not a good move. The main concern people will have is “If the power spells are moved down the trees then people will become OP” however dw, I have thought of that and will get to it later.

    The biggest example of this is the Druid class, up to 31 points you don’t even have a DPS pet. The beginning of the tree is very weak and then it gets all of the good spells in on lump sum at the end. From 36 points onwards you are increase the effect of attack power on your satr by 20% a point and also get some huge spells, “reduce damage taken by 50% increase damage done by 50%”, “reduce healing received by 50% on target” “increase ability cost by 50% on target” “pet attacks deal an extra 40 damage”. While if you want to be druid it doesn’t matter what order the spells come in, this class offers absolutely nothing to other classes if they wanted to put a few points in it which is the case with pretty much all classes expect inquisitor.

    So let’s look at why inquisitor is the overflow soul of choice, and not druid for example. For 14 points in inq you get:
    Two strong debuffs, a snare, a purge, fear immunity, powerful AoE, mana renewal, passive healing, 20% crit and healing bonus and worthwhile buff.

    For the same 14 points in Druid you get:
    A fairy (max level 27), worthless shield, weak debuff, good instant cast attack, mana renewal, 10 sec sleep, small selfheal and 5% increased crit chance.

    The Inquisitor bonuses are great for any class while druid doesn’t offer practically anything and it’s the same story for most of the classes.

    So what do I suggest?

    It’s taken a long time for me to get round to the point because I wanted to put the background information there. But what I suggest is evenly spreading the spells across the class focusing on the generic spells at the bottom of the tree and the class specific spells (such as Druids combined effort) further down. Making it so that as you go down the tree you get a balance of CC, bread and butter, DoT’s or whatever else the tree offers and move away from this structure that bread and butter are found at the bottom, few utilities in the middle and the real gold at the top. That model is good for generic MMO's as it gives you the feeling of getting more and more powerful, but Rift needs to move beyond that and make the progression even. The real power spells however should remain deep down so people cannot get their hands on multiple of these. But utility and standard spells should be evenly spread out as you progress.

    As the title says, normalise the trees. Categorise the different types of abilities and spread them evenly for each role meaning the first X points will give you Y bread and butter, Z CD spells etc. These spells will all be completely different and fill different purposes depending on the role but make sure the rate of progression is more even for each soul (no more getting 3 utility spells for inq and none for druid). If a class is too OP then they can just put then move some of the more powerful spells down and replace them with less game changing abilities. This will allow us to truly “build our own hero” as Rift says. It will allow us to build our own class and not stick to the standard Tank / Heal / DPS that rift was meant to move away from. Druid provides debuffs, Cabaltist AoE, Inquisitor ranged DPS and shaman Melee DPS. It is important that these classes are defined early on and you don’t need to go 25 points into a class to get what they are really about.

    I have only used Druid and Inq as they are good examples

    An example maybe?

    As I think druid is the worst at this I will use this class to demonstrate what shuffling I would do. Firstly take Satyr out of the 31 point talent. That talent should be a game changer CD, something that defines the class, not the tools for the class to function. I would then replace the 31 point ability with the “50% damage reduction while 50% damage increase”, moving satyr to the 24 point ability along with greater faerie. The roots of Druid would look like (up to 18):

    0 – Faith in Action
    0 – Fervent Strike
    0 – Faerie
    0 – Dismiss pet
    2 – Bombard
    4 – Sheild
    8 – Eruption of Life
    10 – Crag Hammer
    10 – Track Fae
    12 – Wild Strike
    14 – Fae Hammer
    16 – Slothful Spirit
    18 – Fae Step

    This rearranging means the end result of Druid is the same but lower down there is more bulk. You still don’t get a decent pet until 24 points. Talent wise move Savage force down a tier (keeping boundless growth where it is) to give the beginning of the talents more bang per point. If you carry on with this soul you will get more bread and butter (combined effort) and more utility. However if you decide to move to another soul you can continue building your hero with a different type of bread and butter and different utility.
    Last edited by jaal; 06-03-2012 at 02:29 PM.

  2. #2
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    I'm sorry, but what you seem to be requesting (more dps roles that are viable) will never happen because there will always be a top spec that everyone will use.

    We currently have a 100% certain top spec in Jolt n Bolt, but it's not used on every single fight. We have 51 inq for when ranged is required; outside of that an extreme mobile fight may be suited for 51 shaman, but usually not.

    Even if a spec is only 100 dps behind, it's not considered viable for any serious player because it's simply inferior. What it all boils down to is

    1. Feasibility on a certain encounter
    2. How much DPS it does

  3. #3
    Shield of Telara jaal's Avatar
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    I'm not talking about min/maxing. This is not a solution to having multiple "viable" top raid DPS specs its an idea to allow all souls to be able to give something to a class without having to go 51 into it and then pair it with inq

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    Quote Originally Posted by jaal View Post
    I'm not talking about min/maxing. This is not a solution to having multiple "viable" top raid DPS specs its an idea to allow all souls to be able to give something to a class without having to go 51 into it and then pair it with inq
    Certainly you are talking about min/maxing. If you weren't, you'd be satisfied with pairing druid, purifier, and cabalist without worrying about DPS, etc.

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    I think his/her point was more about how deep in the tree the "must have" spells are for some DPS trees vs others.

    Inq has some quite good stuff in the first 14 points, druid... not so much.

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    Ascendant Eughe's Avatar
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    I agree with the ops sentiment. But its too late for that now.

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    RIFT Guide Writer Bowler Hat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lighteyes View Post
    I think his/her point was more about how deep in the tree the "must have" spells are for some DPS trees vs others.

    Inq has some quite good stuff in the first 14 points, druid... not so much.
    Most of thre Bread and Butter DPS abilities are quite low in the trees or roots. My eyeballs fizzled out in the second enormous paragraph so I don't know if the OP mentioned the 36 point root abilities or not, but these are the real reason you go full 51 in a DPS tree, not the deeper talents.

    Druid is a possible exception, but then Druid still suffers from a complete lack of identity. If you want to DPS as Druid you need to go deep enough to get the Satyr, and at the end of the day it's still the 36 point root ability that brings the oomph to the pet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahov View Post
    I'm sorry, but what you seem to be requesting (more dps roles that are viable) will never happen because there will always be a top spec that everyone will use.
    Well, I hope you are wrong on that one. I think there should be at least a couple that are within 100 (200 at the most) dps of each other.


    As for the stuff about Druid, it's not just the 36 root point ability that adds the damage there is a 51 point damage add as well.

    If it was up to me, a small change I would consider is removing slumber, the mezz with a 2s cast time and big cooldown (ie pretty limited use) and put a purge or interrupt somewhere in the Druid tree. Oterh than that, I pretty much disagree with you guys the soul clearly has two functions, melee+pet DPS or melee+pet hybrid healer. Not that hard to understand.

    As long as there's a reason to run a build with heavy investment, fine, but ideally there should be multiple builds capable of achieving roughly the same thing. If Druid does it's best DPS if you put 12 points into Shaman, it needs an interrupt or purge. It's either that or make the 12 into Inquisitor the best. I say that because there's really alot of pressure on a Cleric to do the best dps they can be seeing as they're already generally behind the other 3 callings. Mage has a similar issue I guess with Necromancer being the only tree with a straight purge.
    Last edited by Malark; 06-03-2012 at 09:51 PM.

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    RIFT Guide Writer Bowler Hat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malark View Post
    As for the stuff about Druid, it's not just the 36 root point ability that adds the damage there is a 51 point damage add as well.
    Druid is certanly the exception; littered with the good intentions of patches past. No wonder it has no identity, the cleric soul without soul.

  10. #10
    Shield of Telara jaal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahov View Post
    Certainly you are talking about min/maxing. If you weren't, you'd be satisfied with pairing druid, purifier, and cabalist without worrying about DPS, etc.
    I can understand why you would think this is a min/maxing issue. but i havent asked for any buffs to the classes just for some more interesting abilities be available earlier on. Currently because there are no moves offered low down in lots of roles min/maxing or not no one is going to spec into a role where all they are going to get anything from it apart from some trash spells that wont help their class one bit.

    Say you are looking to put a few points in a Cleric DPS soul, 14 for arguments sake what would you gain that you wouldnt get from carrying on in your own soul?

    Shaman:
    1 Buff, 1 Decent DoT, Sheild, mana regen, reactive heal and two attacks.

    Nothing that is really going to add to your class. the heal would be something different.

    Cabaltist:
    Root, Two AoE attacks, Debuff, 45 sec CD direct attack, fear immunity

    The root is good but again very run of the mill stuff, nothing thats really going to give you much.

    Ive already gone over that druid gives you sod all. and finially inq gives you a purge, snare a buff and two DoTs. Which adds to your class a load more than any of the others which is why its always taken.

    If you didnt go Inq your not gaining anything, just getting a different DoT and losing utility

  11. #11
    Plane Walker Lalothen's Avatar
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    Given the Druid example, I feel compelled to ask what your real agenda is.

  12. #12
    Shield of Telara jaal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lalothen View Post
    Given the Druid example, I feel compelled to ask what your real agenda is.
    My real agenda? I only used druid as it emphasised my point the best

  13. #13
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    I think i see what he is getting at. He wants to get away from this idea that clerics have to be 51 points into anything to be worth while. That you shouldnt have to have 36+ points in a tree to get something that makes the role what it is.

    However I an on the fence with this one. Every tree in the cleric class seems have their bread and butter in the middle of tree, not just the healers. Okay maybe the Druid is not a good exsample for your comparison because while you pointed out the problems with the Druid, you also pointed out that the other classes dont have this problem. However, all the classes having these problems seems to be the main argument.

    Confusing.

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