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Thread: Tired of this

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahov View Post
    Clerics can do quite a bit of dps (We were equal to mages and rogues before 1.8), but we do need a top-end spec that isn't as simple as Jolt-n-Bolt.
    You see, this is where it goes wrong. It comes down to maybe 3 things....

    1> "Oldschool" players think that a Cleric on equal footing DPS wise means no one would play any other class, that Clerics would get preferential treatment in raid composition etc.

    2> Trion, and some players seem to be in love with Doctrine of Loyalty and icar builds. Even if it means the Cleric can't really perform the damaging role properly.

    3> You get it all wrong, it shouldn't be SPEC singular, this is where you don't seem to get it. It should be SPECS PLURAL. If you get 4 souls (10 really), with lots of possible cominations, and only expect ONE of them to be actually useful, something has gone wrong in my opinion.




    For the Cleric class I don't have a problem with 51 point builds being the best, I am OK with hybrid builds being as good, but not better. The problem with hybrid builds doing more damage is that the halves of these souls become redundant. People lose out on on a basic utility or cool ability to simply 'get the job done' etc. So yeah..

    51 Druid should be viable and interesting to play.
    51 Shaman should be viable and interesting to play.
    51 Inquisitor should be viable and interesting to play.
    51 Cabalist AOE viable and interesting to play.


    You compare that to.. just having one viable spec that is viable and interesting to play and I hope you see how the game kinda sucks that way and how there's a lot of waste.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Remli View Post
    I stopped here.

    Lol@ Clerics who don't want to heal. Reroll.
    I wanted to play a Shaman not a cleric. In fact I wanted to play a Shaman/Druid mix but Trion put both of those souls in the CLERIC tree. Too bad 51 versions of both of those souls do really crappy DPS and any mix of those two does even worse DPS.

    Clerics have 4 souls that are dedicated to DPSing yet we only have one DPS spec that is SOSO at DPS. Even our bread and butter AOE spec Cabalist which use to me the best AOE spec in the game is now 3rd place.

    If I spend 66 points on pure DPS souls, I want to put out the same DPS as the other classes.

    It is that simple.
    I kill more players than anyone! Just ask the last raid that asked me to heal!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Daglar View Post
    I wanted to come out and say the following pretty definitively: There is no goal to make DPS clerics that DPS do less damage than other callings.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivengar View Post
    I wanted to play a Shaman not a cleric. In fact I wanted to play a Shaman/Druid mix but Trion put both of those souls in the CLERIC tree. Too bad 51 versions of both of those souls do really crappy DPS
    How can you come to a game, having decided what souls you want to play, regardless of what class they are in? I'm not meaning to sound harsh, I'm actually interested.

    Surely if I play and like Purifier in this game, and I go to another MMO in the future, I wouldn't expect the Purifier tree to be the same, even if it was in a class called Cleric. Or would I? This is my first MMO so I'm not sure how it works, but I would imagine I'd expect it to be different. If it's not different, and I don't want it to be different, why would I move at all?

    /confused

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merridwyn View Post
    How can you come to a game, having decided what souls you want to play, regardless of what class they are in? I'm not meaning to sound harsh, I'm actually interested.


    /confused
    Because before I started playing this game I did research. I read the class descriptions like this:

    http://www.riftgame.com/en/classes/cleric/shaman.php

    then read the druid one:

    http://www.riftgame.com/en/classes/cleric/druid.php

    Hmmm 2 mele based builds, seems like they would go well together.

    Guess what, they dont.

    That is the major problem with cleric class as a whole right now. Very few of our souls mix well.

    The only exception is justicar where you go 11-14 points deep in to mix with just about anything to make a raid healing spec. If DOL was 20 points or more higher you would see a heck of a lot less *icar specs out there.

    JoltNbolt is our only true hi-bread spec and our only good DPS spec. Our best raiding healing specs are 51 pointers although many 3x3x specs can compete.

    The 2 major flaws with cleric DPS specs right now is there is not enough synergy between the souls and too much RNG. A 51 shaman spec CAN beet the JoltnBolt with luck but the law of averages says that JnB will win 9 times out of 10.
    I kill more players than anyone! Just ask the last raid that asked me to heal!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Daglar View Post
    I wanted to come out and say the following pretty definitively: There is no goal to make DPS clerics that DPS do less damage than other callings.

  5. #20
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    If you really believe that all clerics should heal then you are ignorant. The statement goes along with all warriors should tank. Just because you play a class that has that ability does not mean you should be locked into it. Atleast I tried to come up with a solution. All you guys really did was troll. WTG, you should be proud of yourselves.

    As far as DoL is concerned... People should just work on being better healers. There really is no talent in DoL healing.

    As far as Cleric support goes, there is none. You have no buffs/debuffs worth while, no real cc's, nothing of value but healing. You are a healer!

    As far as the Cleric tank is concerned... The devs are happy with the cleric and are not planning on raising their health pool.

    Where does that leave cleric DPS. One of the atractive things about clerics is their versatility, and this includes but is not limited to healing. Yet clerics are reduced to nothing more than healers because their DPS is pathetic compared to every other class ingame. Reductio ad absurdum!!!

    If you think I should play another game because I believe in fairness then you are arogant. If you think I should reroll another toon because of my preferances then you are willfully ignorant.

    Atleast I tried to come up with a solution, what did any of you do other than troll. And to the person who commented on what my idea would do to the hybrid healers. I pointed that out in the first post.

  6. #21
    Rift Chaser Crazio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maedoc92 View Post
    I am tired of Cleric getting knocked down another notch ever patch. I am tired of falling behind on DPS while everyone else gets a boost
    lol of couse youre tired.. its like forcing a Doctor (Clerics) to be a Wrestler (War).
    You had chosen the Main Healing Class and you wanna dps? You want high dps + healings? Godmode? lol!

    Live with it.. if u aint healing you aint winning it for your team. Case Closed.
    Have a nice day buddy

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crazio View Post
    lol of couse youre tired.. its like forcing a Doctor (Clerics) to be a Wrestler (War).
    You had chosen the Main Healing Class and you wanna dps? You want high dps + healings? Godmode? lol!

    Live with it.. if u aint healing you aint winning it for your team. Case Closed.
    Have a nice day buddy
    which class do you play?
    rogue? you rolled the class to dps..you aren't allowed to tank or support
    mage? you rolled to dps..no healing for you!
    warrior? warriors are tanks! you can't dps

    hmm, seems that rogues can tank along side warriors\clerics (clerics a bit behind here, not much but a bit)
    mages heal great
    warriors smoke aoe and put out great ST in a single spec

    so the lol you rolled a cleric you can only heal only applies to us?

    tldr, this reasoning is ******ed, all roles\classes should be reasonably equal, which they aren't

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malark View Post
    For the Cleric class I don't have a problem with 51 point builds being the best, I am OK with hybrid builds being as good, but not better. The problem with hybrid builds doing more damage is that the halves of these souls become redundant. People lose out on on a basic utility or cool ability to simply 'get the job done' etc. So yeah..

    51 Druid should be viable and interesting to play.
    51 Shaman should be viable and interesting to play.
    51 Inquisitor should be viable and interesting to play.
    51 Cabalist AOE viable and interesting to play.


    You compare that to.. just having one viable spec that is viable and interesting to play and I hope you see how the game kinda sucks that way and how there's a lot of waste.
    I do believe that cleric DPS could use some quality-of-life improvements to make it A) interesting to play and B) competitive in the sense that it's not lagging hundreds of DPS behind that of another class (assuming equally skilled players). Again, due to the utility of clerics in multiple roles, they should not be the master of all roles, but a versatile and competitive jack-of-all-trades. Cab could definitely use a nice change for rotation complexity, and Shaman and Druid are probably long overdue for a fundamental evaluation.

    51 Inquisitor though is in a fairly good state, particularly since a raid should always have an Inquisitor deep enough to provide the magical damage debuffs to maximize raid DPS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maedoc92 View Post
    As far as DoL is concerned... People should just work on being better healers. There really is no talent in DoL healing.

    As far as Cleric support goes, there is none. You have no buffs/debuffs worth while, no real cc's, nothing of value but healing. You are a healer!

    As far as the Cleric tank is concerned... The devs are happy with the cleric and are not planning on raising their health pool.

    Where does that leave cleric DPS. One of the atractive things about clerics is their versatility, and this includes but is not limited to healing. Yet clerics are reduced to nothing more than healers because their DPS is pathetic compared to every other class ingame. Reductio ad absurdum!!!
    Getting rid of hybrid healers in the current state of raiding would be a mistake, particularly on progression.

    Clerics provide no worthwhile debuffs? Since when do the two top magic damage taken debuffs not matter? That said, I would like some work on improving the support abilities of warriors or clerics, particularly with regard to some direct CC and energy management abilities.

    Cleric tanks in their current state are more likely to be subject to RNG in a given attempt on an encounter simply due to the lack of control over RNG hits cleric tanks have (almost entirely due to lower effective HP). However, they have nice utility in being able to provide additional support healing in encounters that require an off-tank for only certain portions of the fight.

    Again, cleric DPS could use some work for variety and competitiveness. But at present, they do serve extremely useful roles in raid content (albeit in cookie-cutter builds or variants) and have extremely good solo capability (useful for open-world content).

    It could be worse -- cleric DPS was ABYSMAL prior to the introduction of Mien of Aggression and cleric tank threat was finally fixed a few patches ago (with overheal threat generation working properly).

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  9. #24
    Rift Chaser Crazio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Will5757 View Post
    which class do you play?
    rogue? you rolled the class to dps..you aren't allowed to tank or support
    mage? you rolled to dps..no healing for you!
    warrior? warriors are tanks! you can't dps

    hmm, seems that rogues can tank along side warriors\clerics (clerics a bit behind here, not much but a bit)
    mages heal great
    warriors smoke aoe and put out great ST in a single spec

    so the lol you rolled a cleric you can only heal only applies to us?

    tldr, this reasoning is ******ed, all roles\classes should be reasonably equal, which they aren't
    Yes im a Mage and fyi this is the only game i have to add some heals for my builds.
    Unless i have a Healer that keep an eye on me most of the time, i'll go all out Dps.

    Sorry if im in the wrong forum but i have to say that every class should do what they are meant to do best!
    So you Heal i'll Dps. Do your Main and i do my Main.

    By the way, why you chose to be Clerics if you are want higher dps i wonder... hmm..

    P.S. Btw if you are Guardians just go with whatever specs you like and forget what i just said lol!
    Last edited by Crazio; 06-03-2012 at 05:15 AM.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crazio View Post
    Sorry if im in the wrong forum but i have to say that every class should do what they are meant to do best!
    So you Heal i'll Dps. Do your Main and i do my Main.
    Try reading the thread.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maedoc92 View Post
    Mein of Agression (MoA): Linked to DPS trees -- Shaman, Druid, Inquistor, Cabalist,

    Mein of Leadership (MoL): Linked to Tanking tree -- Justicar

    Mein of Honor (MoH): Linked to Healing trees -- Purifier, Warden, Sent

    For every point put into the tree that it is linked with the buff should have a simple equation to the percentage of the effect it grants. (p=points dedicated to the tree)

    For MoA/MoH: p/66*100= percentage of the buffs full effect generated.
    For MoL: p/51*100= percentage of the buffs full effect generated. MoL would be a differant value since there is only one tanking tree, and only 51 points that can be spent in it.

    This ofcourse would probably eliminate most of (if not all) the DoL raid heal specs, but a healer should not need to throw up 1-2k DPS.
    This design would be much better than what we have now. They should also remove the 36-point passive scaling roots, and replace them by increasing the power of the Miens.

    This would allow like souls to synergise with like (ie DPS with DPS, healing with healing), and it would also mean that hybrid DPS/healing builds wouldn't be overpowered in PvP, because the Mien cooldown limits their ability to switch between DPS mode and healing mode.

    I would also like to see DoL go. It is boring and overpowered as a group healing tool (too spammable and mindless, and too powerful a healing ability for a non-healing soul, compared to the abilities of actual healing souls). It's also boring and overpowered as an AoE threat-generation tool for tanking Justicars due to its reliance on healing threat (unlimited range, affects all mobs that you're in combat with). It would need replacing with something else, though - improved AoE healing for the healing souls, to cope with the raid-healing needs of the existing content, and a different AoE threat generator for Justicars.
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  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flimble View Post
    Try reading the thread.
    Try reading OP first then the thread.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivengar View Post
    Having 6 of any of the other 3 classes on the other hand is most like the better way to go.
    "most like the better way to go" lol
    I would like to see an ID stream with 6 warriors in the raid clearing the first 7 bosses. I'm sure its possible but I just want to watch them squirm.
    Last edited by Failstorm; 06-03-2012 at 01:38 PM.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crazio View Post
    Yes im a Mage and fyi this is the only game i have to add some heals for my builds.
    Unless i have a Healer that keep an eye on me most of the time, i'll go all out Dps.

    Sorry if im in the wrong forum but i have to say that every class should do what they are meant to do best!
    So you Heal i'll Dps. Do your Main and i do my Main.

    By the way, why you chose to be Clerics if you are want higher dps i wonder... hmm..

    P.S. Btw if you are Guardians just go with whatever specs you like and forget what i just said lol!
    sry to say the game wasnt' advertised as cleric = heal, tanks = warrior, everyone else dps..it doesn't fucntion that way either

    if PA was never introduced it'd be easy to simple reroll. unfortunately after you play a main for several month's your now stuck (gotta love pa, too good not to have if your progression raiding), i'm guessing your a pvper from the way you talk, you a little sore that clerics are tired of healing you?

  15. #30
    Prophet of Telara BrownsMageNerfDelivery's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Will5757 View Post
    sry to say the game wasnt' advertised as cleric = heal, tanks = warrior, everyone else dps..it doesn't fucntion that way either

    if PA was never introduced it'd be easy to simple reroll. unfortunately after you play a main for several month's your now stuck (gotta love pa, too good not to have if your progression raiding), i'm guessing your a pvper from the way you talk, you a little sore that clerics are tired of healing you?
    I am tired of not being able to heal as effectively in PvP! I'd happily heal warfronts and let clerics DPS if I didn't feel like me healing would be of less use to the group than having me run a Dom spec or hybrid with Dom and have the cleric focus on healing.

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