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Thread: Is it time to look at cleric tank HP yet?

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    RIFT Guide Writer bombasy's Avatar
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    Default Is it time to look at cleric tank HP yet?

    Being 2-3k lower hp than warrior tanks in worse gear is getting old, now I am roughly 4k under warrior tanks with similar gear when fully raid buffed.

    As it stands right now clerics are better off getting wisdom PAs over endurance PAs anyways.

    Please fix our endurance PA and buff scaling and/or make MoL scale 70% max health like it was supposed to* in 1.8 before the 60% change got reverted.

    * as proven by many clerics with formulas and graphs saying that 60% was crap and 70% was the bare minimum
    Last edited by Sonic Rain Boom; 05-30-2012 at 10:58 PM.
    Hedonism (Deepwood)

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    from this post http://forums.riftgame.com/rift-gene...-awnser-4.html

    A Warrior in Infernal Dawn gear has a 72.71% reduction from Armor. A Cleric in Infernal Dawn gear has a 75.53% reduction from Armor. (EDIT: FYI, those values are after taking into account the reduction in effective Armor due to the level difference between you and the monster.) The Armor reduction is multiplicative with the Block Reduction as it happens earlier in the damage calculation. The Justicar also has a higher Block Reduction, even with the caps fixed.

    In equivalent Infernal Dawn gear:ĽOn a normal Physical hit, a Justicar takes >5% more damage than the Warrior.
    ĽOn a Blocked Physical hit, a Justicar takes <2% more damage than the Warrior.
    ĽOn a normal non-Physical hit, a Justicar takes <3% more damage than the Warrior.
    ĽOn a Blocked non-Physical hit, a Justicar takes <1% less damage than the Warrior.

    As a tradeoff, the Justicar has a lower average DPS taken due to their superior avoidance (<5% better than the Warrior's), but 4% less health. That's completely ignoring HPS offerings, off-tanking advantages, or DPS differences in either party's favor.

    and later

    In equivalent Infernal Dawn gear (note that none of these numbers include PAs), the Warrior has 21635 health while the Justicar has 20753. That's 4.08% less.

    If you add in PAs, at tier 3, that difference can widen another 3% or so due to the difference between the way Gifts and MoL work. Is that something we're super thrilled about? Not particularly. However, it's not something we plan to address at this time. The dungeon guys have been balancing Infernal Dawn around the lowest possible tank HP as a result (which was previously Riftstalkers, though that will be changing slightly).


    if you look that over, and im not saying you havet already, but before factoring in PA it looks like we take slightly more damage per hit but self heal, we have slightly less HP but have around 5% more avoidance. were as good as we have ever been and tank balance is as good as it has ever been. if we are balanced really well then the only reason to get the tank HP pool identical is to prevent ignorant assumtions about gear simply by looking at the tanks HP pool.

    i guess what im getting at is that it would be nice if we got the same mileage from our main PA tank stat but if you figure that they get a max of 3% more endurance from full t3 PA wich isnt even availible yet then all in all were doing pretty good. seems like the kind of thing where they could just add a bit more endurance on our cleric shields compared to warrior shields to compensate.

    im more interested in getting tankng weapons that actually look like maces or hammers, not fireplace pokers.
    Shieldy 60 Warrior
    Gloredhel 60 Mage

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shieldy View Post
    from this post http://forums.riftgame.com/rift-gene...-awnser-4.html


    In equivalent Infernal Dawn gear

    •On a normal Physical hit, a Justicar takes >5% more damage than the Warrior.
    •On a Blocked Physical hit, a Justicar takes <2% more damage than the Warrior.
    •On a normal non-Physical hit, a Justicar takes <3% more damage than the Warrior.
    •On a Blocked non-Physical hit, a Justicar takes <1%less damage than the Warrior.

    As a tradeoff, the Justicar has a lower average DPS taken due to their superior avoidance (<5% better than the Warrior's), but 4% less health. That's completely ignoring HPS offerings, off-tanking advantages, or DPS differences in either party's favor.
    This confuses me... Due to Superior Avoidance?

    I read about and it seems plain that it isnt Superior... And Top that off with Less of a HP pool....
    Last edited by JusticarToki; 05-30-2012 at 02:39 PM.

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    I dunno man, I'm @ 20-21k depending on what buffs I have up. Aside from mechanics where I've been nearly insta-gibbed I don't see a problem with the amount of health we have. Warriors are dying just as quickly from what we've seen.

    Perhaps it depends on tank equipment but even prior to this patch I've always been able to hold my own in the event that we didn't have another Warrior tank to do the same thing prior to 1.8 but at this point there are some negligible differences.
    ODOMA!!!

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    RIFT Guide Writer bombasy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shieldy View Post
    In equivalent Infernal Dawn gear (note that none of these numbers include PAs), the Warrior has 21635 health while the Justicar has 20753. That's 4.08% less.
    PAs matter, and raid buffs matter, warriors scale way better with raid buffs.
    Hedonism (Deepwood)

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    RIFT Guide Writer bombasy's Avatar
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    Adding to that, the deadliest thing right now is back to back unblocked hits, for which we take more damage and have less HP to buffer, we don't need much more than we have right now, but being on the same level would be nice.

    A warrior has a 4kish buffer after taking 2 unmitigated ituziel hits, a cleric has less than 1k.
    Hedonism (Deepwood)

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    I sit at about 20.5k hp with no PA in endurance and only 3 ID pieces. Our fully relic'd warriors (I only have 2 relics) sit at about 22k. I could gain another 540 hp if I respec for tank, meaning I can hit 21k. Also you must factor in the insane instant threat we generate...

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    Sword of Telara Calibrex's Avatar
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    Just passed the 22k hp mark on my cleric tank.
    Where's the Auction House to buy more DPS for my cleric?

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    I mentioned in another thread tht as a tank, I wouldn't might if the absorb shield cooldown was reduced to 30-40% if overall hitpoints where iincreased 10%.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JusticarToki View Post
    This confuses me... Due to Superior Avoidance?

    I read about and it seems plain that it isnt Superior... And Top that off with Less of a HP pool....
    hes saying that when we get hit, we take slightly more damage. the numbers with the % was how much for each type. however we have around 5% higher avoidance to make up for it. this also doesnt factor in self healing with IMHO negates the increased damage we take.

    way back when before the massive overbuff warriors got, wich is what caused the problem in the first place, we had a good amount more HP than a warrior and had higher avoidance but took more damage per hit. thats the way it "should" be if your an "avoidance" tank wich we somehow turned out to be.

    my point was that instead of reworking PA or our MEIN skills wich could cause some massive balance issues, it seems easier to just add more base endurance to our shields. easy fix IMHO.
    Shieldy 60 Warrior
    Gloredhel 60 Mage

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    more food for thought, remember we are comparing our mitigation/hit points to the 38 reaver wl/pali spec that most run.

    remember that if a warrior decides to run vk for utility/aoe threat, WL for buffs or whatever, they dont get that mitigation. and we put out so much more threat than them its silly.

    also remember that they dont have much in the way of cooldowns in that spec, their main cooldowns are at the 44pt mark and they loose them for the max average mitigation.
    Shieldy 60 Warrior
    Gloredhel 60 Mage

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    Ascendant No_Exit's Avatar
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    2 words:

    Spike Damage

    HP does matter.. even if your taking slightly less damage per hit.

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    RIFT Guide Writer bombasy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shieldy View Post
    more food for thought, remember we are comparing our mitigation/hit points to the 38 reaver wl/pali spec that most run.

    remember that if a warrior decides to run vk for utility/aoe threat, WL for buffs or whatever, they dont get that mitigation. and we put out so much more threat than them its silly.

    also remember that they dont have much in the way of cooldowns in that spec, their main cooldowns are at the 44pt mark and they loose them for the max average mitigation.
    I might be mistaken but I am pretty sure that other builds not 38rv get more passive mitigation but less overall mitigation, so they have to worry even less about taking 2 unmitigated hits in a row because they'll take even less damage.

    Here's an exercise:
    - Get into a group with a warrior tank, a rogue tank and a bard.
    - Look at their hitpoints compared to yours.
    - Have the bard cast his buffs (all of them).
    - Look at the tank HP again.
    - Weep.
    Last edited by bombasy; 05-31-2012 at 11:06 AM.
    Hedonism (Deepwood)

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    Sword of Telara Calibrex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bombasy View Post
    I might be mistaken but I am pretty sure that other builds not 38rv get more passive mitigation but less overall mitigation, so they have to worry even less about taking 2 unmitigated hits in a row because they'll take even less damage.

    Here's an exercise:
    - Get into a group with a warrior tank, a rogue tank and a bard.
    - Look at their hitpoints compared to yours.
    - Have the bard cast his buffs (all of them).
    - Look at the tank HP again.
    - Weep.
    HP is not the end all be all.
    Where's the Auction House to buy more DPS for my cleric?

  15. #15
    RIFT Guide Writer bombasy's Avatar
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    my point was that instead of reworking PA or our MEIN skills wich could cause some massive balance issues, it seems easier to just add more base endurance to our shields. easy fix IMHO.
    What balance issues? All that is needed is to make our endurance PAs and raid buffs work with our hp/end modifying abilities, otherwise we end up taking more damage on unmitigated hits and having less HP to survive them.
    Hedonism (Deepwood)

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