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Thread: Cleric tanking without raid gear

  1. #1
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    Default Cleric tanking without raid gear

    I decided to dust off my old cleric and see if I can't get into tanking for 5-mans. Problem is... seems every team has at least one HK or better geared DPS who can't hold off long enough for me to hold agro.

    Is there a higher TPS spec than 51 justicar that would still give me the survival I need with my crappy gear?

    Should I blow 400 inscribed on the 100ins planar essences or save up for the tanking epics with the blighted set bonus?

    Is the Justicar greater essence (chance to heal on Strike of Judgement) worth it over the Shield on Heal greaters?


    There are a LOT of guides on gear etc but they all seem to start at HK and go up from there, I'm not sure if things are the same for dungeon runners or if I should be looking at different stats.
    BOO!

  2. #2
    RIFT Guide Writer TheGrinnz's Avatar
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    Hit the mobs
    use DoL a bunch
    ???
    profit

    anything that increases the overheals of DoL will increase the threat it gives, as well
    Last edited by TheGrinnz; 05-22-2012 at 09:21 AM.

  3. #3
    RIFT Guide Writer Noshei's Avatar
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    If you want to get max threat you have to use DoL, a lot. It generates a huge amount of threat and should keep everything on you, assuming that your entire party is in range of DoL (Like 35m).

    If you are looking at lower level gear, you want to get as much as you can from your sepc, so I would start off with 51 Justicar / 3 Shaman. From there you have a couple of different options, but if threat is an issue, then we want to max your threat generation. To achieve this 12 Sent is a good option, you get +5% SP (not really a big deal, but helps out), +5% increased effectiveness for heals, and +2+ increased effectiveness to AoE heals.

    The +7% increase to DoL will help you out a lot for threat, but the important thing to remember still is to use DoL. For this spec you can pull with any ranged ability, they all give 1 conviction. The next thing you should do is hit DoL. By this point the mobs are most likely on you so you would go into your normal rotation.

    By normal rotation I would use the following macro:
    Code:
    #show Strike of Judgment
    suppressmacrofailures
    cast Life's Vengeance
    cast Precept of Refuge
    cast Sovereignty
    cast Bolt of Radiance
    cast Doctrine of Authority
    cast Strike of Judgment
    cast Light Bolt
    cast Banish
    I would weave in DoL every time I have extra conviction, I consider extra conviction to be any conviction I have while both PoR and DoA are on CD. With how this macro is setup you will have 1 extra conviction after DoA, with time for a DoL and another Life ability before the PoR buff runs out.

    Also keep in mind that when you crit with a conviction building ability you will get an extra conviction. So make sure to use that extra conviction asap.

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    Put the pa spell power stone(120), or the 200 spell power stone on your weapon. It does not give us avoidance anymore, but it will raise your spell power by over 20% and make a big difference on the amount of threat you generate, over and above doing the normal things such as opening with sh or bolt of radiance, dol, ej spam. Also, once an aoe pack of mobs is one you, even justice is better for threat than DoL, so DoL to round stuff up, then even justice till the mobs are dead if you arent getting hit too hard(using a global for precept of refuge is often enough for the 10k dps warriors to get aggro off of ya).
    Last edited by stefe; 05-22-2012 at 09:57 AM.

  5. #5
    RIFT Guide Writer Noshei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stefe View Post
    even justice is better for threat than DoL
    This is incorrect. DoL generates a lot more threat than even justice at any time.

    so heres some numbers to back me up as well.

    with roughly 500 SP, this is about where an expert geared justicar would be at I believe.

    At this amount of SP here is what everything hits for:

    Even Justice: 200
    Salvation: 80
    Reparation: 50
    DoL (me): 415
    DoL (Party): 380

    So to get the threat generated by Even justice we take 6 times the dmg of even justice and add in the total healing * 1.2

    200*6+((80+(50*4))*1.2)
    1200+(280*1.2)
    1200+336
    1,536 total threat

    For the threat generated by DoL alll we do is multiply the total healing by 1.2

    (415+(380*4))*1.2
    1935*1.2
    2,322 total threat

    so we have a difference of about 800 threat. Now with the DoL threat it will be applied to any mob that has you on their aggro table. It will also get applied to any mob that has a group member on their aggro table, but not you. This is compared to the threat generated by Even Justice which will only apply the damage done to each mob + the threat from Reparation/Salvation.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lighteyes View Post
    Should I blow 400 inscribed on the 100ins planar essences or save up for the tanking epics with the blighted set bonus?

    Is the Justicar greater essence (chance to heal on Strike of Judgement) worth it over the Shield on Heal greaters?
    What most said in here is correct. DoL is amazing for threat and you have number to back it up by Noshei.

    To answer your other questions, I dont use any greaters and have all lessors in all my sigils. The shields are ok but since the change for wisdom 1:1 block, parry and int 1:1 dodge, having all lessors is much better for total mitigation.

    Where you should spend the ISS, if you have 400 and you have the planerite, you could buy a full sigil of tanking essences from each plane now and by the time you have enough for the set bonus, you can have another 60 ISS. If you want everything, spend 300 ISS on tanking essences and spend another 60 on the crystal and then start working for more ISS to upgrade. I think that would do better for you currently and then you can start working on building a water or fire sigil for future raids.

    Just my thoughts on where to spend your ISS.

  7. #7
    Champion of Telara Quietmode's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noshei View Post

    If you are looking at lower level gear, you want to get as much as you can from your sepc, so I would start off with 51 Justicar / 3 Shaman. From there you have a couple of different options, but if threat is an issue, then we want to max your threat generation. To achieve this 12 Sent is a good option, you get +5% SP (not really a big deal, but helps out), +5% increased effectiveness for heals, and +2+ increased effectiveness to AoE heals.

    The +7% increase to DoL will help you out a lot for threat, but the important thing to remember still is to use DoL. For this spec you can pull with any ranged ability, they all give 1 conviction. The next thing you should do is hit DoL. By this point the mobs are most likely on you so you would go into your normal rotation.
    Or go 12 warden and get a 15% healing boost to DoL and a 10% dmg boost to BoR and sov and any other spells.


    Cleric Tank

  8. #8
    RIFT Guide Writer Noshei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quietmode View Post
    Or go 12 warden and get a 15% healing boost to DoL and a 10% dmg boost to BoR and sov and any other spells.
    yeah or that




    Thanks Mr show off

  9. #9
    RIFT Guide Writer usman's Avatar
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    Open with BoR from a good range always and follow it with DoL.

    BoR has travel time, this allows your GCD to go around so that as soon as your BoR hits, you can immediately DoL and lock down the threat.

    If you open with a zero travel time spell such as life's vengance, soverignty or sanction heretic you allow those trigger happy DPS'ers 1.5 secs to rip agro off you before you can DoL, this then means you have to work alot harder to get the mobs back.
    Ambi - Cleric - Apotheosys.


  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noshei View Post

    By normal rotation I would use the following macro:
    Code:
    #show Strike of Judgment
    suppressmacrofailures
    cast Life's Vengeance
    cast Precept of Refuge
    cast Sovereignty
    cast Bolt of Radiance
    cast Doctrine of Authority
    cast Strike of Judgment
    cast Light Bolt
    cast Banish
    I would not recommend putting all of your ranged attacks into the single target macro. Leave them in a separate macro for utility. There's no reason to waste your ranged attacks when you're tanking a single mob. Save it for chain pulling the next group or the for any unexpected pats.

    Single Target: This is pretty much all you need for single target.
    Code:
    #show Strike of Judgment
    suppressmacrofailures
    cast Precept of Refuge
    cast Strike of Judgment
    Range pull:
    Code:
    #show Strike of Judgment
    suppressmacrofailures
    cast Bolt of Radiance
    cast Sovereignty
    cast Life's Vengeance (use Sanction Heretic instead if you spec'ed into Inq)
    Doctrine of Authority should be a separate button. You want to save it for a) extra burst healing to help out the healer (like the last boss in xAP), or b) when you have a high dps and you want further lock down aggro through overhealing.

    Opening looks like this:
    1) Range macro, hitting a melee mob with Bolt of Radiance.
    2) While BoR is traveling, if there's a caster/range in the pack of mobs, run at him, otherwise run into the middle of the pack.
    3) Spam the DoL button while you're running toward the pack.
    4) Start Even Justice spam when you reach them.
    5) Use DoL if needed, but it's doubtful you need it once you're in melee range and hitting them with EJ.

  11. #11
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    wow, thanks everyone, this is all good information. I hope to try it on my next run.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noshei View Post
    This is incorrect. DoL generates a lot more threat than even justice at any time.

    so heres some numbers to back me up as well.

    with roughly 500 SP, this is about where an expert geared justicar would be at I believe.

    At this amount of SP here is what everything hits for:

    Even Justice: 200
    Salvation: 80
    Reparation: 50
    DoL (me): 415
    DoL (Party): 380

    So to get the threat generated by Even justice we take 6 times the dmg of even justice and add in the total healing * 1.2

    200*6+((80+(50*4))*1.2)
    1200+(280*1.2)
    1200+336
    1,536 total threat

    For the threat generated by DoL alll we do is multiply the total healing by 1.2

    (415+(380*4))*1.2
    1935*1.2
    2,322 total threat

    so we have a difference of about 800 threat. Now with the DoL threat it will be applied to any mob that has you on their aggro table. It will also get applied to any mob that has a group member on their aggro table, but not you. This is compared to the threat generated by Even Justice which will only apply the damage done to each mob + the threat from Reparation/Salvation.
    Thanks noshei. I was going off of the assumption that damage had a higher threat multiplier on it for threat than overhealing(dol). Did you factor this into your numbers, or am i mistaken that damage has higher multiplier than overhealing. Also, are you multiplying ej damage x 6 due to hitting multiple mobs?

    Also, its really late so sorry if im not thinking clearly, but for the salvation/reparatoin heals, are you factoring in the total healing done from hitting 3-5 mobs? I.E the healing from the 200 damage is multiplied 3-5 times per party member depending on the size of the pull?
    Last edited by stefe; 05-22-2012 at 08:21 PM.

  13. #13
    RIFT Guide Writer Noshei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stefe View Post
    Thanks noshei. I was going off of the assumption that damage had a higher threat multiplier on it for threat than overhealing(dol). Did you factor this into your numbers, or am i mistaken that damage has higher multiplier than overhealing. Also, are you multiplying ej damage x 6 due to hitting multiple mobs?

    Also, its really late so sorry if im not thinking clearly, but for the salvation/reparatoin heals, are you factoring in the total healing done from hitting 3-5 mobs? I.E the healing from the 200 damage is multiplied 3-5 times per party member depending on the size of the pull?
    So the way Dmg threat is handled is pretty simple MoL increase our threat by 500%, normal threat without any modifiers is equal to the damage done. So to get our threat from damage we simply multiply the damage done by 6 for the 500% increase.

    Now healing threat is handled a bit differently, threat from healing is equal to 1/5 of the healing done, but MoL still increases this healing threat (overheal or not, both work the same). So to get the threat generated from healing we take the amount healed multiply it by 0.2, we then take that total and multiply it by 6 (simplified you just multiply by 1.2). This gives us the total threat from healing, but this scales up to 10 players (max DoL can heal). So to get a good approximation you can simply multiply the amount healed on one person by the total number of people healed prior to calculating the threat.

    Now from my example earlier you will see that I did 80+(50*4) (reparation/salvation) and 415+(380*4). This is so that the difference in the healing I receive, due to +10% healing received talent, is factored into the calculation (80 from salvation and 415 from DoL).

    It is also important to remember that reparation caps at 5 players and will not heal yourself or other clerics with MoH active.

    So what we end up with is that as we increase the number of players DoL heals (max of 10) we increase the amount of threat going to each mob linearly. This compares to EJ which will do basically the same amount of threat to each mob without regard to the number of mobs or players (Because dmg threat only applies to the mob that took the damage). There will still be a slight increase from reparation/salvation, but it is negligible in this case.



    My examples earlier are based off of 1 mob and a group of 5 players, but to factor in multiple mobs is really easy.

    For EJ, you will do roughly the same amount of threat to each mob you hit (based upon the the damage done to each mob i.e. a crit does more threat), up to a max of 5. After 5, you will only do the threat generated by reparation/salvation (as I mentioned earlier reparation maxes at 5 and salvation of course only heals yourself).

    For DoL, you will do the exact same amount of threat to every mob that has you on their threat table. Though this threat is, as mentioned earlier, multiplied by the number of players healed by DoL (max of 10).

    So when we look at the examples earlier and want to find the max threat that you can generate per mob (with the assumption of 10 players and 5 mobs) you would have the following results.

    Even Justice
    200*6+((80*5+((50*5)*5))*1.2)
    1200+((400+1,250)*1.2)
    1200+(1,650*1.2)
    1200+1,980
    3,180 total threat per mob hit by EJ
    1,980 total threat per mob not hit by EJ


    DoL
    (415+(380*9))*1.2
    (415+3,420)*1.2
    3,835*1.2
    4,602 total threat per mob (this will be applied to an infinite number of mobs so long as you are on their aggro table)

    So as you can see, DoL is better in pretty much any party/raid situation.

    One very important factor to remember as well is that EJ requires facing and the ability to hit the mob, where as DoL doesn't require either of those directly (need both to get convictions of course).
    Last edited by Noshei; 05-22-2012 at 09:49 PM.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noshei View Post
    So the way Dmg threat is handled is pretty simple MoL increase our threat by 500%, normal threat without any modifiers is equal to the damage done. So to get our threat from damage we simply multiply the damage done by 6 for the 500% increase.

    Now healing threat is handled a bit differently, threat from healing is equal to 1/5 of the healing done, but MoL still increases this healing threat (overheal or not, both work the same). So to get the threat generated from healing we take the amount healed multiply it by 0.2, we then take that total and multiply it by 6 (simplified you just multiply by 1.2). This gives us the total threat from healing, but this scales up to 10 players (max DoL can heal). So to get a good approximation you can simply multiply the amount healed on one person by the total number of people healed prior to calculating the threat.

    Now from my example earlier you will see that I did 80+(50*4) (reparation/salvation) and 415+(380*4). This is so that the difference in the healing I receive, due to +10% healing received talent, is factored into the calculation (80 from salvation and 415 from DoL).

    It is also important to remember that reparation caps at 5 players and will not heal yourself or other clerics with MoH active.

    So what we end up with is that as we increase the number of players DoL heals (max of 10) we increase the amount of threat going to each mob linearly. This compares to EJ which will do basically the same amount of threat to each mob without regard to the number of mobs or players (Because dmg threat only applies to the mob that took the damage). There will still be a slight increase from reparation/salvation, but it is negligible in this case.



    My examples earlier are based off of 1 mob and a group of 5 players, but to factor in multiple mobs is really easy.

    For EJ, you will do roughly the same amount of threat to each mob you hit (based upon the the damage done to each mob i.e. a crit does more threat), up to a max of 5. After 5, you will only do the threat generated by reparation/salvation (as I mentioned earlier reparation maxes at 5 and salvation of course only heals yourself).

    For DoL, you will do the exact same amount of threat to every mob that has you on their threat table. Though this threat is, as mentioned earlier, multiplied by the number of players healed by DoL (max of 10).

    So when we look at the examples earlier and want to find the max threat that you can generate per mob (with the assumption of 10 players and 5 mobs) you would have the following results.

    Even Justice
    200*6+((80*5+((50*5)*5))*1.2)
    1200+((400+1,250)*1.2)
    1200+(1,650*1.2)
    1200+1,980
    3,180 total threat per mob hit by EJ
    1,980 total threat per mob not hit by EJ


    DoL
    (415+(380*9))*1.2
    (415+3,420)*1.2
    3,835*1.2
    4,602 total threat per mob (this will be applied to an infinite number of mobs so long as you are on their aggro table)

    So as you can see, DoL is better in pretty much any party/raid situation.

    One very important factor to remember as well is that EJ requires facing and the ability to hit the mob, where as DoL doesn't require either of those directly (need both to get convictions of course).
    Ok this makes good sense when you factor in multiple mobs. So in a five man setting, DoL is alot more threat on a 3 pull, slighty higher with 4 mob but more gauranteed threat(no positioning required to hit mobs etc), and less threat only on a pull with five mobs (3180 per mob with even justice and 2687 per mob with DoL). But again, DoL is more aoe threat when you have more than five mobs in a pull since you cant hit them all.

    Thanks again for this solid math! On a perfect five pull in a t2, EJ makes more threat once you have the mobs rounded up with DoL. Other than exactly five mobs, DoL produces more threat.

  15. #15
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    Hey noshei last question i just thought of. Does overhealing generate the same amount of threat as healing? Thanks again for your accurate math on this matter.

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