Cleric Healers are BROKEN

[Velkane]

I was looking at what 51 Purifer gives over just 16, and I'm going to try a heavier Sentinel build with just Ward of the Ancestors.

I'm curious, why do you suggest 28 Purifier, Mann? What is it you feel is worth getting from those 12 extra points? It has no impact on your SotA or WotA shields, you don't get GotA, and you don't get RotA. And you definitely aren't getting Spiritual Conflagration.

All you seem to get is Searing Transfusion (it's pretty weak for a 1m CD) and Flashover (this might be worth it, but only requires 20 points, not 28). So I could see going to 20 Purifier. Why the extra 8 points? Blessing of the Flame and Latent Blaze?

This is what I'm giving a shot: http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=00...szco.Ex000z.-6

Tidal Surge is superior to Flashover (I think; maybe I'm wrong), and also getting +10% max mana, Crushing Wave, Healing Flood, and Restorative Tide. Losing out on Searing Transfusion, Flashover, Blessing of the Flame, and Latent Blaze.

I'm torn on the Healing Invocation boost or the +Crit heal boost. Seems like the +Crit is going to perform better regarding straight Healing Done #s, although the Healing Invocation boost might be more useful to keep a single target up.

[Velkane]

So what's the trick to not going OOM fast? I can put up ridiculous Healing Done numbers, but I don't feel like the quality is there. And I'm OOM a lot faster, and 100% useless once I'm at 0. Conversely as 51 Purifier, I can run around fine at 0 mana, since most of the spells take 50 or less mana to cast. Can pretty much chain cast shields.

Did another WFS this afternoon as Puriden (51 Purifier/15 Warden). Soquel was on the other side; pretty sure she's a Sentinel of some sort, and she was present for most of the match. Bubeland bailed early, as I remember seeing him die in the first score.

Here's the data:

Damage (1.49M v 1.44M, 3.5% difference)

Healing (700K v 566K, 80% difference) -- They got 50 kills off nearly 800K unhealed damage. We got 140 kills off 900K unhealed damage. 100K damage made up 90 kills? I find that unlikely.

Kills (141 v 53, 266% difference)

I'm not sure how much better evidence I could provide to prove that:

a) Clerics Healers are not broken
and
b) 51 Purifier is a very strong WF healer

I certainly agree there are times where I might want to play a Sentinel build, but in my experience they're few and far between. Too many others are already playing it, and then there are Chloros out there doing great AoE heals too.

[Velkane]

Damage (1.49M v 1.44M, 3.5% difference)

Healing (700K v 566K, 80% difference) -- They got 50 kills off nearly 800K unhealed damage. We got 140 kills off 900K unhealed damage. 100K damage made up 90 kills? I find that unlikely.

Sorry, did the math wrong.

We had 141 kills off 950K unhealed damage. 6700 HPs average per death
They had 53 kills off 750K unhealed damage. 14000 HPs average per death

So nearly 90 kills from 200K.

[Velkane]

Bubeland and I meet again in WFS. We were behind by 3 kills when I joined, and pushed back into our base. After I joined, we won 3:0. I didn't die once, and spent the entire match on the enemy half of their board after we broke out of our base.

Here's the data:

Damage (1.52M v 1.26M, 20% difference)

Healing (829K v 750K, 10% difference)

Kills were 89 to 37. 240% difference.

Ally unhealed damage was 400K, 10810 HPS per death
Opponent unhealed damage was 750K, 8426 HPS per death

These numbers weren't as impressive, but Bubeland played this entire match.

I also ran a Rift Junkies 1.92 Parser on this match. Here's the link.

[MannSeastone]

I was looking at what 51 Purifer gives over just 16, and I'm going to try a heavier Sentinel build with just Ward of the Ancestors.

I'm curious, why do you suggest 28 Purifier, Mann? What is it you feel is worth getting from those 12 extra points?

This is the 38/28 Sent/Puri build I use. Flashover + Latent Blaze is a huge heal when you need it most, Sterilize works wonders against Doms, and the extra points let you pick up Ancestral Flame and Enflamed Rejuvenation. That's the best of the Purifier tree as far as pickable talents go, so I stop there.

The way to use the build is to drop massive ST heals with 1.5 second casts on people, with instants, AOE heals, and Marked by the Light to proc Serendipity. You lose about 700 points or so off Ward of the Ancestors but it's still a great spell for when you're on the move.

That Rift Junkies parser looks awesome and will finally supply some data on the effectiveness of the shields. As I thought, they're low. You had 128 HPS which increased to 207 HPS with shields. I just ran into you in-game and here is the parse I took. Kind of a bad game to judge anything from, since it was a slaughter and we were both scrounging for heals, but whatever. You can see from the overhealing how well Sent/Puri scales, and see from my heal breakdown (not provided, didn't know how to save it) that I wasn't just AOE spamming.

[Velkane]

K, Mann and I just were in the same Library together. Here's all the info from the parser, as well as the raw log file, if you want to look at it yourself.

Total Absorbs (Impossible to tell who cast what absorbs): 339K
To put this in perspective, the other team had 27K in absorbs. So if we assume our team was producing as much absorbtion (minus us), that'd be 212K in absorbs we created.

From what I can tell, using Windows Grep, Mann cast Ward of the Ancestors 24 times. He also cast Shield of the Ancestors once. I'm not sure what his shielding value is, but I do know what mine are, and what I cast. If I assume max shield values:

SotA 5 times: 5 * 2466 = 12330
WotA 29 times: 29 * 2466 = 71514
GotA 8 times, with 67 applications: 67 * 1739 = 116513
RotA triggered 9 times: 9 * 2466 = 22194
Spiritual Conflagration for 15 ticks: 15 * 2145 = 32175
Restorative Flame 1 time: 1 * 1830 = 1830
Caregiver's Blessing triggered 24 times: 24 * 542 = 13008

My Total: 269564

Total Heals: Mann @ 144.5K, Velkhar @ 87.7K

Effective HPS: I'll assume Mann has a 2K shield, and it was all effective
Mann: 144.5 + (25 * 2K) = 194.5K/326 = 596
Lets say my effective absorbtion was our combined total - 50K, or 212K-50K: 162K
Velkhar: 87.7K + 162K = 249.7K/326 = 766

So, do you think 51 Purifier is still "not viable"?

If you're interested in Healing Breakdowns, here they are:
Mann Breakdown
Velkhar Breakdown

Here's the raw data file.

I'm in no way certain my analysis is 100% correct. Let me know where the holes are, other than the absorb ambiguity issue.

[Velkane]

That Rift Junkies parser looks awesome and will finally supply some data on the effectiveness of the shields. As I thought, they're low. You had 128 HPS which increased to 207 HPS with shields. I just ran into you in-game and here is the parse I took. Kind of a bad game to judge anything from, since it was a slaughter and we were both scrounging for heals, but whatever. You can see from the overhealing how well Sent/Puri scales, and see from my heal breakdown (not provided, didn't know how to save it) that I wasn't just AOE spamming.

You did not calculate absorbs correctly.

The absorbs in my row are the Absorbs I CONSUMED. Not the absorbs I produced. You have to total all absorbs on the team, and then GREP the CombatLog.txt file to figure out who cast what. I did that in my analysis. Took me FOREVER

Shielding is NOT low by any stretch.

You were scrounging for heals cuz the absorbs are so awesome. More damage was absorbed than was taken. That's what the parser is telling you.

[Racked]

K, Mann and I just were in the same Library together. Here's all the info from the parser, as well as the raw log file, if you want to look at it yourself.

Total Absorbs (Impossible to tell who cast what absorbs): 339K
To put this in perspective, the other team had 27K in absorbs. So if we assume our team was producing as much absorbtion (minus us), that'd be 212K in absorbs we created.

From what I can tell, using Windows Grep, Mann cast Ward of the Ancestors 24 times. He also cast Shield of the Ancestors once. I'm not sure what his shielding value is, but I do know what mine are, and what I cast. If I assume max shield values:

SotA 5 times: 5 * 2466 = 12330
WotA 29 times: 29 * 2466 = 71514
GotA 8 times, with 67 applications: 67 * 1739 = 116513
RotA triggered 9 times: 9 * 2466 = 22194
Spiritual Conflagration for 15 ticks: 15 * 2145 = 32175
Restorative Flame 1 time: 1 * 1830 = 1830
Caregiver's Blessing triggered 24 times: 24 * 542 = 13008

My Total: 269564

Total Heals: Mann @ 144.5K, Velkhar @ 87.7K

Effective HPS: I'll assume Mann has a 2K shield, and it was all effective
Mann: 144.5 + (25 * 2K) = 194.5K/326 = 596
Lets say my effective absorbtion was our combined total - 50K, or 212K-50K: 162K
Velkhar: 87.7K + 162K = 249.7K/326 = 766

So, do you think 51 Purifier is still "not viable"?

If you're interested in Healing Breakdowns, here they are:
Mann Breakdown
Velkhar Breakdown

Here's the raw data file.

I'm in no way certain my analysis is 100% correct. Let me know where the holes are, other than the absorb ambiguity issue.

You see that pie chart Mann??? Too much damn item healing imo stop PvE'ing!

[Velkane]

You did not calculate absorbs correctly.

The absorbs in my row are the Absorbs I CONSUMED. Not the absorbs I produced. You have to total all absorbs on the team, and then GREP the CombatLog.txt file to figure out who cast what. I did that in my analysis. Took me FOREVER

Shielding is NOT low by any stretch.

You were scrounging for heals cuz the absorbs are so awesome. More damage was absorbed than was taken. That's what the parser is telling you.

In fact, I had a typo in my calculation. We had 339K total absorbs. You cast 25 absorb-based spells, for ~50K absorbs. If we assume our teammates produced as much absorb as the other team, that'd be 27K. I ran Build Estimations against everyone else on our team, and no one else had Purifier. So that means either you cast more than 25 spells that produced absorbs, or I really did something like 250K in absorbs. Not 162K.

[Racked]

Its funny to argue over healing in WF's but keep it up! At least people ARE healing I don't mind trying to figure out what the best healing in PvP is. Its much more constructive then the non-sense Heals are broken cry cry cry. I do use Mann's 39/27 sent ward build (I hate shields) but use whatever you want to heal with.

My point being...Keep healing in WF's!

[Velkane]

In fact, I had a typo in my calculation. We had 339K total absorbs. You cast 25 absorb-based spells, for ~50K absorbs. If we assume our teammates produced as much absorb as the other team, that'd be 27K. I ran Build Estimations against everyone else on our team, and no one else had Purifier. So that means either you cast more than 25 spells that produced absorbs, or I really did something like 250K in absorbs. Not 162K.

Here's another match I just played. We got SLAUGHTERED, due to terrible team balance. Yet my team had 317K absorbs, and I had 84.8K in healing done.

I don't feel like calculating their absorbs, it's too much work. But I'm certain it's a sliver of 317K.

[Velkane]

And another, with two deep Purifiers this time. Rennaldo and I racked up 605K absorbs between us. Again, this match I got slaughtered due to no DPS.

I think these parses clearly show just how effective absorbs are, so I'll stop

[MannSeastone]

That's a good analysis. Here are the only holes I see:

- How'd you come up with the -50k for ineffective shields figure? I don't think it's that low. Shields are cast preemptively, plus I didn't see any situation outside of the beginning of that game where GotA would have been broken on more than a couple people.
- I should also get credit for Restorative Flame shields, which were 1140 apiece (WotA was 1200 or so due to not having the Purifier essence).

So, do you think 51 Purifier is still "not viable"?

It's more viable than I thought, especially when you consider endgame spellpower scaling, the Purifier greater essence, and pre-shielding. Like I said earlier, though, that was a terrible game to draw conclusions from. 51 Puri's weakness are that it's cooldown reliant, doesn't handle AOE well, and can be purged. There was no AOE, no one purging, and so little pressure that cooldowns were never an issue. One of us probably could have gone AFK and we would still have won that.

We'll have to get into a more even match.

[Velkane]

That's a good analysis. Here are the only holes I see:

- How'd you come up with the -50k for ineffective shields figure? I don't think it's that low. Shields are cast preemptively, plus I didn't see any situation outside of the beginning of that game where GotA would have been broken on more than a couple people.
- I should also get credit for Restorative Flame shields, which were 1140 apiece (WotA was 1200 or so due to not having the Purifier essence).

The -50K from our combined total was your contribution. I assumed you provided ~50K in shielding. I just ballparked that figure, based on the 24 WotA + 1 SotA I saw in the logs. I didn't realize you were casting Restorative Flame, considering how deep you are in Sentinel.

Based on my GREPPING, you cast Restorative Flame 17 times in that match. So that'd be 19380 in shields. But your 25 X of the Ancestor shields would only result in ~30000. So you're total is still ~50K.

We had 339K total. You appear to have done 50K in absorbs. Our team probably did some of their own, around 30K if we assume they did as much as the other team. So 339K - 50K - 30K would be the amount of shielding I did. That's nearly 240K. Added to my Healing Done puts me at over 1000 effective HPS.

In other matches, I regularly see total absorbtion in the 300K range. So I wouldn't be surprised if I really did prevent 240K damage.

In heavy AoE games, Healing Communion spam is far better, but so many people do that anyway that I generally find I am better keeping individuals alive through spikes. Port Scion is the only WF I find 51 Purifier lacking, just because battle is constant, and I do end up with all my spike-prevention on CD.

[Misun]

Buff Creeping Remedy!

For something that takes about 6500 points to get, it seems kind of gimp.