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Thread: "Improved Faith in Action" or change the original to standard stat conversion?

  1. #1
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    Default "Improved Faith in Action" or change the original to standard stat conversion?

    Firstly, yes, I'm sure some people are going to say, "Neither, leave things as they are." That's fine, your opinion might be duly noted, I don't know.

    That said, the basic idea is simple. Should either Faith in Action be chanced to convert intellect straight to dexterity and wisdom straight to strength, and let the AP/crit stat derivation follow a warrior-esque rate (if it doesn't already), or would it be better to implement an "Improved Faith in Action" type spell to do that at level 32 while leaving the original in play?

    Either would have the benefit of removing the need for Justicar tree passives to convert stats thereby freeing up room for passives that are more "useful" or at least interesting. They would also work to make caster weapons more attractive to Justicar/Druid/Shaman clerics than square weapons are. Along the way either change would give Druids and Shamans melee avoidance that many players apparently think they should be getting given that they are melee souls.

    The first method would also potentially result in people picking up Shaman, Justicar, or Druid as a ZPS (Zero Point Soul) just to convert their caster stats into avoidance for PvP or solo content, something that may go against Trion's design goals for clerics. The second option, however, would result in more abilities being tacked onto the roots and subsequently cluttering them up more.

    I imagine there are some other issues (such as AP loss depending on what sort of strength/dexterity->AP rate clerics have) that I haven't really thought of, but this was something that just smacked me upside the head as a "solution" to the "problems" some people are having with the lack of melee avoidance for Druids and Shamans and how the proposed 1.8 Justicar changes seem to be devaluing cleric maces, and other non-armor items, for tanking purposes.

  2. #2
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    Faith in Action should affect defensive stats in general from level 0. Putting Justicar, Shaman and Druid at comparable avoidance to Warriors and Rogues seems perfectly fine.

    People already go fairly heavy into Justicar to pick up substantially more avoidance with Devout Deflection, which will likely be changed post-1.8. There should be an alternative that will scale more appropriately.

    My understanding with Hit/Focus is that dodge and parry are basically null in PvP, so this really only affects PvE, although I could be mistake on PvP avoidance.

    If this doesn't really affect PvP, it seems perfectly fine to add in at 0, if there were PvP implications, adding an improved version deeper into either of the three melee souls would counter it sufficiently.

    If Faith in Action was changed, potentially you might want to do something with STR/DEX affecting avoidance, but we have base stats of like 20 or 40 and we would likely change all our runes and essences to the Wisdom versions (assuming it gave 1 Block/Parry like Strength), so the only real sources to worry about would be raid buffs from Bards and Archons.

    Whether or not it is worth looking into really depends on how close Trion actually ends up balancing the tanks. If everything else is even, it's fine to remove, but honestly I suspect Clerics to still be at a mitigation disadvantage so changing the stats is likely a waste of effort that would just further imbalance the class.

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    The answer Zinbik has given us is start every melee build with 27 Justicar... Poor MM..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Undrsiege View Post
    The answer Zinbik has given us is start every melee build with 27 Justicar... Poor MM..
    Not necessarily. What he said was a statement of what is, not what might be. No plans for calling-wide avoidance doesn't automatically mean that Druids or Shamen will never see some sort of root/branch-based avoidance conversion that they can get without spec'ing into Justicar.

    What really bugs me is that Inquisitor and Cabalist shouldn't be getting avoidance, yet if you go deep enough into Justicar to get avoidance Cabalist and Justicar work better, in my experience/view, than Shaman or Druid. In other words if you go deep enough for avoidance in a melee combat build you're best served by not picking any other melee souls. Rift's a different beast from other MMOs, but is that really how things should work?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marikhen View Post
    No plans for calling-wide avoidance doesn't automatically mean that Druids or Shamen will never see some sort of root/branch-based avoidance conversion that they can get without spec'ing into Justicar.
    He said that there were no intentions of giving avoidance to Clerics in general, which would mean all 8 souls.

    Unfortunately this more than likely extends into it not affecting the 0 rank passive Faith in Action, which very likely means Druid and Shaman will not gain mitigation naturally (due to his fear of hybrid specs).

    He also is dead set on making a Justicar invest 6 points to get natural avoidance, which is just another archaic and inefficient remnant from the class.

    Stalwart Citadel was 3 points wasted from the get-go. We always had inferior block to Warriors in addition to being forced to spend 3 points to even have any real block rating.

    Devout Deflection was better because we at least saw solid returns from superior avoidance compared to other tanks. It was fine to have 3 points since it went above and beyond the normal avoidance numbers for Warriors and Rogues.

    Unsurprisingly, Trion decided to reuse antiquated passives when they should be overhauled. It builds the class on faulty foundations and spams additive multipliers that don't scale properly. They band-aided the DPS before ID and now they are band-aiding our tanking right before ID.

    We'll hit the new tier of content and be back to being ineffectual. Awesome.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phage View Post
    He said that there were no intentions of giving avoidance to Clerics in general, which would mean all 8 souls.
    That is rather what I said.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phage View Post
    Unfortunately this more than likely extends into it not affecting the 0 rank passive Faith in Action, which very likely means Druid and Shaman will not gain mitigation naturally (due to his fear of hybrid specs).
    Perhaps, but it doesn't explicitly shoot down the idea of an "Improved/Greater Faith in Action" or whatever at 32 points in. Hell, for that matter it could convert up to 50% of the cleric's int/wis into avoidance and the Justicar passives could be adjusted to pick up the reduced slack. That would result in Shamans and Druids getting avoidance but not mitigation and at a lower rate/value than Justicars.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phage View Post
    He also is dead set on making a Justicar invest 6 points to get natural avoidance, which is just another archaic and inefficient remnant from the class.
    Again, not necessarily. The real "archaic and inefficient remnant" here is not so much cleric design as design philosophy regarding attributes in MMOs. The reason it's an issue in Rift is because unlike other games <cough>Warcraft</cough> you can have situations where intellect/wisdom-based "caster classes" have archetypes that are not only rewarded for being at melee range but designed for melee range combat.

    Honestly, as much as I'm setting myself up for an "applying logic to MMOs is a guaranteed recipe for failure" response it's a logical inconsistency to me. If you're a melee class/calling/tree/soul you should have melee defenses which include avoidance and mitigation. It should not necessarily be in the same leage as a tank's, but it should be there. Likewise if you're going to have one group of archetypes that have to invest points in order to convert their base stats to avoidance/mitigation that should be applied to all archetypes.

    Simply put either melee clerics should be able to acquire avoidance without going into tanking souls as per strength/dexterity classes, or warriors and rogues should need to invest soul points to convert strength/dexterity into avoidance/mitigation. The current half-and-half system just feels wrong when I pay attention to it.

    Again, though, applying logic to MMO design is a recipe for failure. A couple years of World of Warcraft should drive that lesson home for anyone.

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    That's what it should be but god forbid it actually happens.

    I mean, melee classes acting like melee? Preposterous!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eughe View Post
    That's what it should be but god forbid it actually happens.

    I mean, melee classes acting like melee? Preposterous!!
    If they wanna hate on us asking for a simple passive melee mitigation deep in shaman and druid we can really make them hate us with justicar mitigation and outlast them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marikhen View Post
    That is rather what I said.
    That is what Zibnik said.

    Perhaps, but it doesn't explicitly shoot down the idea of an "Improved/Greater Faith in Action" or whatever at 32 points in. Hell, for that matter it could convert up to 50% of the cleric's int/wis into avoidance and the Justicar passives could be adjusted to pick up the reduced slack. That would result in Shamans and Druids getting avoidance but not mitigation and at a lower rate/value than Justicars.
    The fact that Zibnik won't let the current passives go is a pretty clear sign he has no intention of an "Improved/Greater Faith in Action". FiA obviously should be a deep passive upgrade because spending more than 10% of your total tank points to break even with what the others do from the start is obviously imbalanced. This isn't like some ambiguous discrepancy, it's explicit and easily resolved.

    However, he's wasted what, 3 posts to trying to salvage Stalwart Citadel and Devout Deflection? Yet another example of wasted effort and time sunk into antiquated trees instead of overhauling them. T-minus 2 months til the next avoidance band-aid since this is already known to be an inferior solution.

    Likewise if you're going to have one group of archetypes that have to invest points in order to convert their base stats to avoidance/mitigation that should be applied to all archetypes.
    This is likely his bigger issue that if melee clerics get avoidance, then all of clerics can get avoidance, and then mages will whine til they hyperventilate. It is a very likely outcome, but it is also sloppy to approach the problem already defeated than to find balanced resolutions.

    Simply put either melee clerics should be able to acquire avoidance without going into tanking souls as per strength/dexterity classes, or warriors and rogues should need to invest soul points to convert strength/dexterity into avoidance/mitigation. The current half-and-half system just feels wrong when I pay attention to it.
    The current half-and-half system feels wrong because it is moronic. There is basically ZERO cross over from stats. Aside from several Cleric specs make minimal use of raid buffs, but for the most part there really isn't any reason to have them split. Other games have had them split, but they also had significantly more specific classes without the cross over of the soul system.

    In other games Druid and Shaman would be more in a category with Rift Blade and Night Blade. They would obviously have natural avoidance because they are all basically brawling casters. You wouldn't need to worry about the cross over from mixing in Inquisitor or other casting classes into the mix, so it is a lot easier to balance. The soul system in Rift is great and new and interesting, but it gets convoluted real easily.

    Rift had a lot of nuanced ideas, but unfortunately they incorporated a lot of irrelevant and incompatible mechanics from older games that they refuse to let go. The callings are inconsistent with each other since they are obviously all developed by different people and balanced in isolation. It really is unfortunate that there isn't holistic balance and continuity across the callings since a head developer probably could have resolved much of the imbalances far before they ever went live.
    Last edited by Phage; 02-17-2012 at 10:18 AM.

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