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Thread: Cleansing Fiery Spike

  1. #1
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    Default Cleansing Fiery Spike

    To preface this post, I have a p8 rogue and a p6 cleric. I have been playing the cleric lately, learning things that need to be cleansed, learning when to blow my big heals vs. when to save them, and so on. I learned something today that is really, really bad and needs to be fixed. I'm posting it here because I want to both learn how other clerics deal with this and what your opinions are on this subject.

    When playing some nb/rs spec, a rogue generally has Fell Blades on his target within 1 5-pt finisher setup. As a healing cleric, I try to cleanse away FB before doing any significant healing to my target or to myself. Afterall, I don't want the enemy rogue to receive any of my healing, and I want my heals to be as effective as possible.

    Well I learned today that each individual Fiery Spike stack must be cleansed. Fiery Spike stacks up to 3 times. I don't know how the exact mechanic for cleansing works. It would seem that, like with Eradicate, it gets 'stuck' on one thing and likes to keep cleansing it until it is gone. In this case, if your healing target has a FB debuff on him, and if the rogue attacking him has Lingering Flame points, then your healing target will almost always have 3 stacks of Fiery Spike.

    Now, this would be manageable if you could cleanse all 3 stacks at once. Or, if you could cleanse as fast as the rogue can reapply them. Seeing as clerics have a 1.5s GCD and rogues have a 1s, and the Fiery Spike debuff is almost always on your target, you cannot possibly cleanse fast enough. This is truly overpowered and it should not be the way that it is.

    All night long I have been watching this effect. Every time that my cleanse got 'stuck' on Fiery Spike, it wouldn't remove Fell Blades unless I had first completely removed every stack of Fiery Spike. With 1.5s GCDs, that is far too much cleansing and is not reasonable.

    Of course, you can simply say "Heal your target anyway, if it means you're going to keep him alive." That's a fair point, but you can't keep up with heals when they are only 50% effective due to Fell Blades. If the fight is going to last a while, you have got to be able to cleanse that Fell Blades off.


    Anyone else experience this? How do you deal with it? Agree/disagree with what I'm saying?
    Last edited by Metallica11; 01-27-2012 at 07:05 PM.

  2. #2
    RIFT Guide Writer rantology's Avatar
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    Cleansing can be a very painful affair for a PvP cleric. I believe (like purges/eradicate) cleansing will attempt to cleanse the oldest buff first. So if that rogue stacks 3x Fiery Spike and then FB applies, your cleanses will want to get the one that was applied first (Fiery Spike stacks).

    To be honest, my advice would be to simply ignore Fell Blades and/or Vampiric Munitions. You should always heal and expect there to be a healing debuff on the target, the only things I prioritize for cleanses are any and all dominator debuffs (incompetence, mass betrayal, treacherous influence, transference, storm shackle).. But my cleric is as geared as you can get in PvP and I can heal through 50% debuffs with ease most of the time, so perhaps I lack insight for trying to heal through FB/VM/LW.

    Sometimes this cleanse effect can really suck though, like if a Dom decides to troll you and drops Haunting Pain and then Mass Betrayal or something on you. Have fun trying to cleanse 6+ stacks of that off before you can actually get to the MB. :/


    The best you can do right now cleansing wise is go some sent/ward hybrid and spam Curative Waters+Normal Cleanse. and for yourself I'd suggest investing in a few stacks of Panacea, well worth it for those annoying Doms (they aren't too expensive).
    Last edited by rantology; 01-27-2012 at 07:38 PM.
    afk tera.

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    I am glad to hear of the panacea. Never heard of it before, that's awesome, though.

    Maybe it does try to cleanse the oldest buff first, which at least means there's a system to it. I can handle that. However, from what I saw, the Fiery Spike debuff keeps reapplying, and therefore, refreshing it. Maybe in that same time Fell Blades had refreshed and made Fiery again the oldest. I don't know.

    I might be focusing too much on cleansing. But there's just something that gets me when the opponent receives any portion of that healing. Most of the time, I'd rather waste time cleansing followed by a Touch the Light + Healing Invoc after I remove the debuff than to just heal right through it. I hope as I get more geared it won't matter so much.

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    At lower ranks (P3; just hit P4 on this cleric and I leveled my last one a billion patches ago so things feel different) you really need to rip the debuffs off to have a chance at saving people, Rant, especially with how most people play (they lack the self preservation instinct). The heals just aren't enough with low SP/crit trying to cut through that debuff, unfortunately. :/ I don't know how this ends up being at P6, but I'd hope it gets somewhat better.

    From my perspective, I rarely run into Fiery Spike stacks, because it's just not... burst efficient, I guess, unless the target is at range. It can be tricky, but I usually try to get at least two Soothing Stream stacks and a Spray on before setting up some Cleansing Waters + Curative Water spam to get the heal debuff off...

    At that point, if the target is still getting spammed with Fiery Spike they're probably not in immediate danger (due to being out of range) and you have more of a window to deal with it afterwards or let the HoTs do their job. If they're not getting spammed with Fiery Spike, then you can try to weave casts in between heals (which they likely do need since they're probably being meleed) and hope they are trying to do something to help themselves. I usually try to quickly gauge my target's durability, apparent contribution (based on buffs, positioning, guesstimated RR rank based on health, and target selection), and likelihood of salvation before deciding which cooldowns to burn.

    I can say it /was/ much easier as Sent/Ward vs. the 51 Ward I've been messing with lately.

    As Rantology mentions, Panacea is money for self preservation against this sort of thing.

    (Edit: Oh, and it's always /oldest/ debuff first, but refreshing the stack doesn't make the buff /newer/ unless the stack had dropped completely.)
    Last edited by Kyera; 01-27-2012 at 08:41 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyera View Post
    (Edit: Oh, and it's always /oldest/ debuff first, but refreshing the stack doesn't make the buff /newer/ unless the stack had dropped completely.)
    Okay that is how it seemed to be working from what I saw.

    So if Fiery Spike was the first debuff, and then Fell Blades, if you didn't COMPLETELY rid of Fiery Spikes, you can never cleanse Fell Blades?



    Also at P6, I have something like 1350 SP and about 26% crit. I have all the appropriate runes and my sigil has 4 of the 6 lessers being the 100 ISS lessers. Still working to replace the remaining 2. It is still very, very hard to heal through VM/FB/LW.

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    RIFT Guide Writer rantology's Avatar
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    Oh, I forgot- Get 2x shield greaters for your pvp sigil/machine (Hailstone Tideshard + Frozen Deep one Tear). They are priceless for dealing with healing debuffs- they effectively heal for 2x their proc.
    afk tera.

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    Okay that is how it seemed to be working from what I saw.

    So if Fiery Spike was the first debuff, and then Fell Blades, if you didn't COMPLETELY rid of Fiery Spikes, you can never cleanse Fell Blades?[/quote]

    Pretty much. Fortunately, if Fell Blades stacks are continuously being applied, the target should be okay, and if they're not, you can get to Fell Blades in, more or less, two or three GCDs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metallica11 View Post
    Also at P6, I have something like 1350 SP and about 26% crit. I have all the appropriate runes and my sigil has 4 of the 6 lessers being the 100 ISS lessers. Still working to replace the remaining 2. It is still very, very hard to heal through VM/FB/LW.
    You're not making me very optimistic about my future. ;(
    Last edited by Kyera; 01-28-2012 at 06:01 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyera View Post
    Okay that is how it seemed to be working from what I saw.

    So if Fiery Spike was the first debuff, and then Fell Blades, if you didn't COMPLETELY rid of Fiery Spikes, you can never cleanse Fell Blades?

    Pretty much. Fortunately, if Fell Blades stacks are continuously being applied, the target should be okay, and if they're not, you can get to Fell Blades in, more or less, two or three GCDs.



    You're not making me very optimistic about my future. ;(

    Sure you *could* get to FB in 2-3 gcds if fiery spike wasn't constantly being reapplied. 3 gcds for a cleric is an entire 5 pt setup for a rogue. During that time, he might make 2 more stacks of fiery spike (flaming thrust and fiery spike). Then, there is a very good chance his finisher (blazing strike) is just going to apply another stack. So even with the double cleanse (curative waters?) and a single cleanse, you can't possibly keep up just due to the difference in gcds.

    Keep in mind that if you're spending that much time cleansing, you aren't doing any healing. If you mix some heals in with your cleanses, then you will NEVER rid fiery spikes to have a chance at FB. So basically your options are try to heal through FB (which you absolutely cannot without healers cov, detaunt, and a lot of luck), or try to cleanse, which means no healing at all and a very slim chance to cleanse FB.

    Let's suppose you manage to spend 3 or 4 gcds cleansing and you finally get to FB. Well, in all likelihood it is going to be reapplied in 5 seconds or less. Then you smash your head into the keyboard.
    Last edited by Metallica11; 01-28-2012 at 07:38 AM.

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    Clerics aren't really the cleansing healer class. Mages are due to 10pt dom full cleanse (Deny - http://rift.zam.com/en/ability/309243247/Deny).

    Other than using the warden ticking cleanse, there isn't much you can do. You'll just be in a battle of GCDs which the rogue will win every time.

    There are many things you can say about this, like clerics need a full cleanse, or rogue heal debuffs need to have a procrate nerf, or fiery strike should be easier to cleanse.

    But the real message trion is sending right now is that clerics are supposed to heal through that while their dominator mage buddies cleanse everyone.
    Last edited by Valnak; 01-28-2012 at 08:38 AM.

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    I've been calling it for a long time that clerics are evolving into nothing more than cleanse bots for pvp. Trion doesn't want clerics healing at all the way this is going.

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    Ascendant Kyera's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metallica11 View Post
    Sure you *could* get to FB in 2-3 gcds if fiery spike wasn't constantly being reapplied. 3 gcds for a cleric is an entire 5 pt setup for a rogue. During that time, he might make 2 more stacks of fiery spike (flaming thrust and fiery spike). Then, there is a very good chance his finisher (blazing strike) is just going to apply another stack. So even with the double cleanse (curative waters?) and a single cleanse, you can't possibly keep up just due to the difference in gcds.
    If the Nightblade is high enough in Nightblade to have fully talented Lingering Flame (hint: it's one of the tree's throwaway talents), and the target is alive long enough to see the Nightblade benefit from Lingering Flame a second time, the target is likely in no real danger of dying. If Fiery Spike is getting spam-reapplied because the target is out of melee range, he is likely in no real danger of dying.

    With 51 Nightblade, you have far bigger issues than Fiery Spike spam or Lingering Flame, imo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metallica11 View Post
    Keep in mind that if you're spending that much time cleansing, you aren't doing any healing. If you mix some heals in with your cleanses, then you will NEVER rid fiery spikes to have a chance at FB. So basically your options are try to heal through FB (which you absolutely cannot without healers cov, detaunt, and a lot of luck), or try to cleanse, which means no healing at all and a very slim chance to cleanse FB.
    I'd say that, depending on the spec, you can certainly do enough healing. With Warden, you just weave Soothing Stream in with the cleanses. If Fiery Spike is constantly being reapplied, then Soothing Stream stacks should be sufficient for survival -- again, assuming the target is doing something to help themselves out here. If Fiery Spike is not being constantly reapplied, then you'll get to Fell Blades soon enough (while weaving in other things to weather the storm until such time as you can). Or, if you're facing a 51 NB, especially one coming in hot with SoD and Living Flame available, the target will likely just explode unless cooldowns get blown.

    I am also making a perhaps invalid assumption that the person you're trying to cleanse/heal/save is getting, at the very least, incidental healing from other healers in the warfront/raid/whatever, if not targeted healing or cleanses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metallica11 View Post
    Let's suppose you manage to spend 3 or 4 gcds cleansing and you finally get to FB. Well, in all likelihood it is going to be reapplied in 5 seconds or less. Then you smash your head into the keyboard.
    Or you just, well, /cleanse/ it again. I guess I'm perplexed as to why people have such a tough time with cleansing in this game. idk, maybe I've got nothing really to compare it to.
    Last edited by Kyera; 01-28-2012 at 09:06 AM.
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    You realize the point of this thread is that you simply can't just "cleanse it again". You can barely cleanse it the first time.

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    I know this isn't the best answer, but I thought you might like this. I call it the Holy Water build.

    http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=00...AuMo0xszo.VLkb

    Pros:
    -2 Cleanses
    -Purge
    -Three AoE heals through Ripple, Healing Flood, and Doctrine of Loyalty
    -Aggressive Renewal
    -10% damage reduction+15% Armor boost
    -Silence
    -15% Mana Regen
    -Self healing through Contempt
    -Waterjet
    -Plenty of HoTs
    -Reprieve
    -Interupt
    -90% of your healing is non-interuptable (Screw you Deaden)
    -More Dodge/Parry

    Cons:
    -Very low DPS
    -No ST burst healing
    -Mana Intensive
    -No Break Free (Fixed in 1.7)

    With this, you can purge those fell blades and then cleanse the effects. You'll be able to survive nearly anything, and if lower ranked, be able to survive longer. Vex any target you see and stay in the back.
    Last edited by Anthony01; 01-28-2012 at 11:01 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Daglar
    Hey guys, there is a lot of speculation out there right now, I wanted to come out and say the following pretty definitively: There is no goal to make DPS clerics that DPS do less damage than other callings.
    Daglar; Lead Calling Designer~10/17/12

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    Ascendant Kyera's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metallica11 View Post
    You realize the point of this thread is that you simply can't just "cleanse it again". You can barely cleanse it the first time.
    There are a lot of threads posted with "points" that I don't agree with, in whole or in part.

    If I agreed with your exact assessment, I would have simply hit the 'like' button instead of posting a reply.
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