1.7 Mage vs Cleric. Who heals better?

[hippyman]

Mage:
1. Spammable heals
2. Unlimited mana (you cannot argue against this)
3. Scales far better with sp coefficients and Radiant spores
4. Brings various CC's if specced low into dom: Arresting presence (OP much?), Sheep, Interrupt, Reflective Command, Deny (Basically a 4x superior version of the purifier cleanse which has a 45 sec cd),
5. 4 minute brez (FOUR MINUTES?)
6. Better dps than a senticar while maintaining the same if not more hps with less effort
7. and who could forget WILD GROWTH (10% MORE DAMAGE AND HEALING AND SLOW)

Requires: 1 soul to heal, 1 soul to add extra dps -> heal, and 1 soul for added cc

Cleric (Senticar):
1. Two 5 minute brezes (If going deep justicar while sacrificing raid healing potential)
2. 5% damage reduction on 10 guys if casting DoL
3. Thanks to healers creed change, mana is now going to be more of an issue (Note: Near, purpose can keep us going for longer but we'll still have to pot and make sure not to 'spam'; unlike a chloro who won't even carry pots in their bag and casts all they want)
4. Healers covenant on 1 target every 2 minutes

Requires: Being the archetypal healer, 2 pure heal souls (Or 1 dps soul and a heal soul for t3h fail), Justicar soul

Remind me, why do chloros get unlimited mana and a tonne of utility to boot? They aren't even the archetypal healer. Why do they receive unlimited mana while our mana conservation ability gets removed?

If you think that DoL was OP, then you'd obviously only been comparing it to the rest of the cleric abilities which are just mediocre on a good day.

If none of these changes are made in a vacuum, then why do we get shafted for mana and utility while the mages just drink our tears?

I've been playing less and less rift because we get poor fixes to our issues. I picked a cleric to heal, but if I can't do it as well as a mage I'm likely to go. My guild leader already has done so, blaming Zinbik for his leave.

It's no longer fun playing second fiddle to a mage in terms of healing throughput, utility and not to mention dpsing like children who sit away from the grown ups table at a Christmas dinner.

Not trolling. Dead serious. Take your shots guys. I'm just laying the cards out on the table.

Ahov mate, troll me all you want, but at the end of the day, you're a cleric too, and you'll be taking the hits.

[hippyman]

Going to add that we have no support soul either. Mages do.

Does this even make an ounce of sense to anyone?

Clerics cannot support.

Offhealing =/= support

[Ahov]

You bring up scaling, so I'll mention the largest scaling issue: our MASSIVE healing increases with gear vs. the tiny amount of HP people get.

Yes, healing in general (chloros as well) scales far too well in comparison to health pools.

As for your main points posted here, they are largely irrelevant or misleading. If you're still stuck on chloro vs. cleric, it just goes to show how far behind you are in the skill/gear curve. Clerics are better tank healers, and the ONLY burst raid healers.

Chloromancer "spammable heals" only apply to 5 raid members at once. It's essentially a much more powerful version of reparation, and a different style of healing than clerics in general. Chloromancer healing keeps people topped off with radiant spores (yes, it scales too well, as do ALL cleric heals) and constantly healing the lowest 5 raid members. Clerics are much more useful in the sense they can immediately respond with DoL during heavy raid damage and offer ultimate burst healing.

You may have picked your cleric to heal, and that's great. However, I don't see how you can consider chloromancers "better" healers. Using more than 1 chloromancer is highly inefficient since radiant spores doesn't stack, and you're basically stacking more of the same "filler" healing, which isn't necessary at all. I can't think of any fight where I would recommend more than 1 chloro, actually. I can think of several where I would recommend multiple clerics.

I really don't know what world you live in where Purpose+heroic mana tonics doesn't allow you to spam DoL. There isn't a single encounter in this game that requires such healing where you go oom with 12 justicar. The "problem" is most inquisicars are used to staying at ranged, using aggressive renewal, and never going oom. The change to Healer's Creed is a welcome one for those who realize this won't lower anyone's hps or usefulness; it just involves you more in your gameplay and forces you to utilize mana regeneration cooldowns/heroic mana tonics. What does this change? Absolutely nothing for me, since I've been utilizing Purpose during downtime on raid damage since I started playing senticar. 1.7 won't change anything at all for those who have been doing it correctly, or those who can adapt and use Purpose.

[Taraern]

Why are you comparing Chloro vs Senticar, they don't even do the same healing roles.

Chloro is a fulltime tank healer with passive healing via radiant spores, guess what you can only have 1 of those. Senticar is bursty AoE healing on demand. Chloro's cannot match against a Senticar for spike damage healing.

If you want to compare two similar Specs. It's 51 Warden vs 51 Chloro.

Guess what, 51 Wardens are already higher then 51 Chloro in terms of raw HPS when the damage is available to be healed, 5.5k HPS Grugonim Parses etc.. An 51 Warden is getting a buff, hooray Warden buffs!

Something tells me your not picking the spec for the fight and just wish 1 spec was OP for everything.

The slow light damage AoE auras in existence play into Chloros favour currently, that's fight design.

The two classes work in tandem, 51 Purifier is amazing tank healing and 51 Warden is amazing raid healing and Senticar is amazing burst healing.

Clerics in the end are better healers then Chloros, but they sync well with each other.

[Eughe]

Clerics are better healers, chloros are good enough healers.

[Finella]

The idea that chloro's heal are tiny, but sustainable and lack burst is a pretty flawed one.

If you are talking about raid heals, you don't look at 51 chloros in Lifebound Veil.

You look at chloro/lock or chloro/pyro hybrids in lifegiving veil.

Some numbers from Molinar by our chloro/lock:

Wild Growth heals for around 360 hp/tick for 12 seconds (6 ticks) on 10 people, on a 1 min CD.

Flourish for all purpose can be considered a DOL clone.

Highest crit Flourish hit was 2287, highest non-crit Flourish was 1525

The highest non-critical initial vile spore hit for our chloro/lock on Molinar was 1430.
The highest critical initial vile spore hit for our chloro/lock on Molinar was 952.

The initial DOT from vile spore is then 520/345 respectively

The highest critical initial ruin hit for our chloro/lock on Molinar was 1292.
The initial DOT from ruin is 500.

All the ruin critted, so I didn't have any non-crit numbers.

Lifegiving veil on a 34/32 chloro/lock converts 112% of life damage done to heals, and 122% of the first tick of a life DOT.

Converted:

Initial crit vile spore: 1430 * 1.12 = 1601
Initial non-crit vile spore: 952 * 1.12 = 1066

DOT from crit vile spore: 520 * 1.22 = 634
DOT from non-crit vile spore: 345 * 1.22 = 420

Initial crit ruin: 1292 * 1.12 = 1 447
DOT from ruin: 500 * 1.22 = 610

The highest DOL crit on that fight was 2409, highest non-crit was 1277

For cursed blow phases, a chloro can throw out wild growth when the emote is up, follow up by an entrophic veiled vile spore -> off veil -> florish -> on veil -> ruin -> vile spore sequence.

The burst from that rivals us, except on less targets if the mage is smart with charge management.

Remember, there are no external damage buffs on Molinar to inflate chloro numbers, and even on Grug, a smart chloro can tag a few ants and use them to heal on the move.

Vile Spore -> Lifegiving veil conversion also scales better with SP than our DOL, and depending on how large the gear increase is for the next tier of content, we can very well see the initial heal from vile spore healing more than our DOL.

If you already have someone to spread protect the frock, I'll rather have a second chloro raid healing than an x-car hybrid for most of HK.

[Malbojia]

Chloro's are situational healers.

Clerics are all around healers.


You could say, clerics are moderately good at everything, where as chloro's can be poor for one situation, but amazing for another.

Clerics can fill any healing role just fine. A chloro might have problems depending on the situation.
Chloro raid healing on Sicaron = solo raid heal the fight without trying
Chloro raid heal on Rune King = cant raid heal worth a damb

Cleric = does just fine on both. Isn't super amazing or super poor at either.

[mxdiz]

Senticar is OP. We have some good chloros and the ONLY time I get beat in hps in raids is Sicaron. I think a point not brought up here is the ability to do both tank/aoe heals at the same time with no downtime on either. My HI heals for 4-7k per cast and with the Serendipity/DoL combination I most always have a Serendipity proc waiting. Yes we don't have infinite mana, but in that case you need to L2Purpose. Also you forgot to mention other utilities like Reprive, Resplendent Embrace (only works on yourself but great if you are in trouble), AoE cleanse and interrupt both on 10sec cd, Healer"s Covenant, Healer's Haste, Touch of the Light, and a silence. Also, the ability to off-tank with taunts is great for some fights. Also Senticars are 100% mobile, on a moving fight we take no hit to hps. I do agree a chloro brings some useful tools, but like Ahov said, stacking more than one is a waste on most all fights when you can stack dol healers/hybrids and get more out of that raid spot.

[Jinjah]

Neither; both clerics and chloros have a raidspot, and neither will get exchanged for the other. That is all that matters.

Your argument is invalid.

[usman]

Will be chloro tears in 1.7 Puri's will block 20000+ damage per 30s from the raid, which is primarily healed currantly by radiant spores in most fights, resulting in chloro HPS parses dropping by upto 6-700.

HPS parses are meaningless, but they will still cry about it.

[cwharland]

Mage:
1. Spammable heals
2. Unlimited mana (you cannot argue against this)
3. Scales far better with sp coefficients and Radiant spores
4. Brings various CC's if specced low into dom: Arresting presence (OP much?), Sheep, Interrupt, Reflective Command, Deny (Basically a 4x superior version of the purifier cleanse which has a 45 sec cd),
5. 4 minute brez (FOUR MINUTES?)
6. Better dps than a senticar while maintaining the same if not more hps with less effort
7. and who could forget WILD GROWTH (10% MORE DAMAGE AND HEALING AND SLOW)

Requires: 1 soul to heal, 1 soul to add extra dps -> heal, and 1 soul for added cc

Cleric (Senticar):
1. Two 5 minute brezes (If going deep justicar while sacrificing raid healing potential)
2. 5% damage reduction on 10 guys if casting DoL
3. Thanks to healers creed change, mana is now going to be more of an issue (Note: Near, purpose can keep us going for longer but we'll still have to pot and make sure not to 'spam'; unlike a chloro who won't even carry pots in their bag and casts all they want)
4. Healers covenant on 1 target every 2 minutes

Requires: Being the archetypal healer, 2 pure heal souls (Or 1 dps soul and a heal soul for t3h fail), Justicar soul

Remind me, why do chloros get unlimited mana and a tonne of utility to boot? They aren't even the archetypal healer. Why do they receive unlimited mana while our mana conservation ability gets removed?

If you think that DoL was OP, then you'd obviously only been comparing it to the rest of the cleric abilities which are just mediocre on a good day.

If none of these changes are made in a vacuum, then why do we get shafted for mana and utility while the mages just drink our tears?

I've been playing less and less rift because we get poor fixes to our issues. I picked a cleric to heal, but if I can't do it as well as a mage I'm likely to go. My guild leader already has done so, blaming Zinbik for his leave.

It's no longer fun playing second fiddle to a mage in terms of healing throughput, utility and not to mention dpsing like children who sit away from the grown ups table at a Christmas dinner.

Not trolling. Dead serious. Take your shots guys. I'm just laying the cards out on the table.

Ahov mate, troll me all you want, but at the end of the day, you're a cleric too, and you'll be taking the hits.

You are quickly become a top troll hippyman...I wish you the best of luck in your endeavors.

[cokronk]

I think warden AOE healing would still be inefficient compared to a chloro though, right? Their AOE dots are mana drains and their regen is pathetic.

[elmattias]

You are quickly become a top troll hippyman...I wish you the best of luck in your endeavors.

this.....and lets not forget he's getting infinitely closer to village idiot as well....further proof? check his other thread about how 1.7 will end competitive raid healing for clerics....its hilarious.

[Myrkel]

Neither; both clerics and chloros have a raidspot, and neither will get exchanged for the other. That is all that matters.

Your argument is invalid.

Exactly.

/10 char

[hippyman]

The idea that chloro's heal are tiny, but sustainable and lack burst is a pretty flawed one.

If you are talking about raid heals, you don't look at 51 chloros in Lifebound Veil.

You look at chloro/lock or chloro/pyro hybrids in lifegiving veil.

Some numbers from Molinar by our chloro/lock:

Wild Growth heals for around 360 hp/tick for 12 seconds (6 ticks) on 10 people, on a 1 min CD.

Flourish for all purpose can be considered a DOL clone.

Highest crit Flourish hit was 2287, highest non-crit Flourish was 1525

The highest non-critical initial vile spore hit for our chloro/lock on Molinar was 1430.
The highest critical initial vile spore hit for our chloro/lock on Molinar was 952.

The initial DOT from vile spore is then 520/345 respectively

The highest critical initial ruin hit for our chloro/lock on Molinar was 1292.
The initial DOT from ruin is 500.

All the ruin critted, so I didn't have any non-crit numbers.

Lifegiving veil on a 34/32 chloro/lock converts 112% of life damage done to heals, and 122% of the first tick of a life DOT.

Converted:

Initial crit vile spore: 1430 * 1.12 = 1601
Initial non-crit vile spore: 952 * 1.12 = 1066

DOT from crit vile spore: 520 * 1.22 = 634
DOT from non-crit vile spore: 345 * 1.22 = 420

Initial crit ruin: 1292 * 1.12 = 1 447
DOT from ruin: 500 * 1.22 = 610

The highest DOL crit on that fight was 2409, highest non-crit was 1277

For cursed blow phases, a chloro can throw out wild growth when the emote is up, follow up by an entrophic veiled vile spore -> off veil -> florish -> on veil -> ruin -> vile spore sequence.

The burst from that rivals us, except on less targets if the mage is smart with charge management.

Remember, there are no external damage buffs on Molinar to inflate chloro numbers, and even on Grug, a smart chloro can tag a few ants and use them to heal on the move.

Vile Spore -> Lifegiving veil conversion also scales better with SP than our DOL, and depending on how large the gear increase is for the next tier of content, we can very well see the initial heal from vile spore healing more than our DOL.

If you already have someone to spread protect the frock, I'll rather have a second chloro raid healing than an x-car hybrid for most of HK.

Somebody who finally gets it and has the maths to back it up.

The cleric forums need more of this