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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: To clear something up

  1. #16
    Rift Master Spyrit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quietmode View Post
    This is false information. I know i tested it at one time but your making me want to test it again just to be 100% sure. There IS a difference or else Thorvins wouldnt differentiate between Non-physical and spell damage.
    Thorvin's Law

    It's not just physical vs spell


    There is Spell damage, physical damage, and non-physical damage.

    Spell damage is Bolt of Judgment
    Non-physical is Strike of Judgment
    Physical is Crushing Blow
    And then there's soul drain.....

  2. #17
    Rift Chaser RickWolford's Avatar
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    Is Soul Drain really that powerful?

  3. #18
    Champion of Telara Alessar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jinjah View Post
    To add to that: anything called melee and Trion often classifies as Ranged (in the case of rogues for example) is not a spell. Spell damage is almost always magical but in rare cases it can be physical, the most well known example of this is Sicaron's Breath. Spell and melee/ranged is a different classification than non-physical/magical and physical.
    Ugh. They should separate Attack Vector and Damage Type.

    Attack Vectors: Melee, Ranged, Spell
    Damage Types: Physical, Elemental (all 6), and usually games have a special untyped damage (Final Fantasy has Ultima, Megaten has Almighty), they may also have a 'Drain' damage type.

    That makes it much easier to categorize what something applies to.

  4. #19
    Sword of Telara
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alessar View Post
    Ugh. They should separate Attack Vector and Damage Type.

    Attack Vectors: Melee, Ranged, Spell
    Damage Types: Physical, Elemental (all 6), and usually games have a special untyped damage (Final Fantasy has Ultima, Megaten has Almighty), they may also have a 'Drain' damage type.

    That makes it much easier to categorize what something applies to.
    Yup, and the Soul Drain example as said by another poster is a nice example of an attack with multiple vecrors.

    Let's not forget the tooltip on the technomancer in the T2 Earth RR being completely and utterly wrong. The buff mentions only "spell damage" yet Strike of Judgment also triggered it.
    Trion failing at their own logic, classic.
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  5.   This is the last Rift Team post in this thread.   #20
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    Faith in Action - Converts one set of stats (SP, SC, and Focus) to another set of stats (AP, PC, and Hit).
    Inner Focus - Specifically modifies the chance to crit on the damaging Spells you cast. Does not modify any stats. Hence, Faith in Action does not apply.

    Of course, the next question is: How do I know which abilities are spells? To answer, I'll start with a quote from myself:
    Quote Originally Posted by Zinbik
    This is a question that comes up often enough that I feel the need to respond so people can simply repost or quote this in all such future threads. Others have responded with similar rules in this thread and similar ones in the past, I just wanted to give some official backing to them.

    The General Rules (at least for Clerics):
    1. If the tooltip says, "Requires Melee Weapon", it's not a Spell.
    2. If it deals weapon damage (i.e. the tooltip includes something like, "deals weapon plus 20 to 40 Physical damage"), it's not a Spell.
    3. If it can be used while Silenced, it's not a Spell.
    4. If it can be Blocked, Dodged, or Parried, rather than Resisted, it's not a Spell.

    If you encounter a Cleric ability that invalidates one of these rules, but still seems to function as a Spell as far as various abilities or soul tree branches are concerned, please post about it because it's probably a bug.
    The following additional explanations may help or may simply obfuscate the matter further...

    First, there are two major categories of abilities used to determine how the ability's outcome is calculated as well as what stats to apply to it: Melee and Spell.

    Melee attacks can Miss or be Blocked, Dodged, or Parried. Melee attacks benefit from Attack Power, Physical Crit, and Melee Hit. Melee attacks are primarily mitigated through Armor. The term Melee here doesn't nececssarily refer to range as bow/gun attacks also fall into this category.

    Spells can only be Resisted. Spells benefit from Spell Power, Spell Crit, and Focus. Spells are primarily mitigated through Resistances.

    Here's where I start throwing monkey wrenches:
    • Some abilities (such as Precept of Refuge or Fated Blow) are capable of ignoring certain outcomes (i.e. they always Hit or can never be Dodged or Parried).
    • Many special monster abilities can ignore all of these normal mechanics and calculations entirely. They simply hit and do specific amounts of damage.
    • Sometimes, when a tooltip says, "Melee", it's refering to which above category it falls into.
    • Sometimes, when a tooltip says, "Melee", it's refering to the range at which an ability can be used. This is more often the case with Clerics, such as with the Vengeances or Hammer of Virtue. These apply to melee-ranged spells, such as Jolt or Soul Drain.
    • Some tooltips that refer to "Spell Damage" are referring specifically to damage from Spells.
    • Some tooltips that refer to "Spell Damage" are referring to any damage that is not Physical.

    We are currently in the process of fixing and clarifying many such sources of confusion, but in the meantime I'll try to address some specifics that have come up in this thread:
    • Lightning Hammer - The initial hit is Melee, but the Lightning DoT it applies is a Spell
    • Jolt - Spell (melee-ranged)
    • Soul Drain - Spell (melee-ranged)
    • Sanction Heretic - Both the initial hit and the DoT are Spells
    • Vex - Spell
    • Frozen Wrath - Melee (that deals Water damage)
    • Strike of Judgment - Melee (that deals Life damage)
    • Even Justice - Melee (that deals Life damage)
    • Moldering Decay (Sicaron's channel) - Spell (that deals Physical damage)
    • Dauntless Courage - Specifically increases the Physical damage type
    • Unyielding - Increases the actual Melee Crit stat, meaning it applies to all abilities using the Melee calculation
    • Destructive Tide - Specifically applies to damaging Spells that are Instacast by default (not reduced via an ability)
    • Hammer of Virtue - Increases the damage of melee-ranged abilities
    • Thorvin's Law - The first part applies to abilities that use the Spell calculation, but the second part applies to any abilities that deal damage that is not Physical
    • Vengeances - Proc on the use of any melee-ranged ability
    Last edited by Zinbik; 12-22-2011 at 12:17 PM.

  6. #21
    RIFT Community Ambassador the_real_seebs's Avatar
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    The more you talk about this, the more suspicious I become that there is some implication of it which, once we figure it out, will improve Cleric performance noticably.
    You can play WoW in any MMO. You don't have to play WoW in RIFT. Oh, and no, RIFT is not a WoW clone. Not having fun any more? Learn to play, noob! I don't speak for Riftui, but I moderate stuff there. Just came back? Welcome back! Here's what's changed. (Updated for 2.5!)

  7. #22
    Rift Chaser Saralene's Avatar
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    Thank you Zinbik for taking the time to explain

    I do have a follow-up question, though, which maybe was answered indirectly in the post, but doesn't seem immediately clear to me:

    Are linked abilities (such as Sanction and Lightning DoTs) affected by modifiers like Destructive Tide? Thecaly are both spells, but are they culated separately from their parent spells? Or would Sanction get the benefit because Sanction Heretic is an instant cast spell, but not Lightning because Lightning Hammer is considered melee?

    I hope that made sense :<
    Saralene - Cleric || Wolfsbane

  8. #23
    Ascendant Eughe's Avatar
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    So hammer of virtue works for jolt and SD?

    That's interesting to know.

  9. #24
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zinbik View Post
    Lightning Hammer - The initial hit is Melee, but the Lightning DoT it applies is a Spell
    Because the initial hit is melee shouldn't this follow the standard melee attack rules?

    When I had last tested it (which I admit was a while ago) you could be in melee range but facing away from the target, like the second boss in GP during the orb channel, and you could still use Lightning Hammer but no other melee attacks (as intended).
    Formerly: Nanase - Rawrior | Camilah - Rogue | Krystie - Cleric | Myuria - Mage

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zinbik View Post
    Faith in Action - Converts one set of stats (SP, SC, and Focus) to another set of stats (AP, PC, and Hit).
    Inner Focus - Specifically modifies the chance to crit on the damaging Spells you cast. Does not modify any stats. Hence, Faith in Action does not apply.

    Of course, the next question is: How do I know which abilities are spells? To answer, I'll start with a quote from myself:

    The following additional explanations may help or may simply obfuscate the matter further...

    First, there are two major categories of abilities used to determine how the ability's outcome is calculated as well as what stats to apply to it: Melee and Spell.

    Melee attacks can Miss or be Blocked, Dodged, or Parried. Melee attacks benefit from Attack Power, Physical Crit, and Melee Hit. Melee attacks are primarily mitigated through Armor. The term Melee here doesn't nececssarily refer to range as bow/gun attacks also fall into this category.

    Spells can only be Resisted. Spells benefit from Spell Power, Spell Crit, and Focus. Spells are primarily mitigated through Resistances.

    Here's where I start throwing monkey wrenches:
    • Some abilities (such as Precept of Refuge or Fated Blow) are capable of ignoring certain outcomes (i.e. they always Hit or can never be Dodged or Parried).
    • Many special monster abilities can ignore all of these normal mechanics and calculations entirely. They simply hit and do specific amounts of damage.
    • Sometimes, when a tooltip says, "Melee", it's refering to which above category it falls into.
    • Sometimes, when a tooltip says, "Melee", it's refering to the range at which an ability can be used. This is more often the case with Clerics, such as with the Vengeances or Hammer of Virtue. These apply to melee-ranged spells, such as Jolt or Soul Drain.
    • Some tooltips that refer to "Spell Damage" are referring specifically to damage from Spells.
    • Some tooltips that refer to "Spell Damage" are referring to any damage that is not Physical.

    We are currently in the process of fixing and clarifying many such sources of confusion, but in the meantime I'll try to address some specifics that have come up in this thread:
    • Lightning Hammer - The initial hit is Melee, but the Lightning DoT it applies is a Spell
    • Jolt - Spell (melee-ranged)
    • Soul Drain - Spell (melee-ranged)
    • Sanction Heretic - Both the initial hit and the DoT are Spells
    • Vex - Spell
    • Frozen Wrath - Melee (that deals Water damage)
    • Strike of Judgment - Melee (that deals Life damage)
    • Even Justice - Melee (that deals Life damage)
    • Moldering Decay (Sicaron's channel) - Spell (that deals Physical damage)
    • Dauntless Courage - Specifically increases the Physical damage type
    • Unyielding - Increases the actual Melee Crit stat, meaning it applies to all abilities using the Melee calculation
    • Destructive Tide - Specifically applies to damaging Spells that are Instacast by default (not reduced via an ability)
    • Hammer of Virtue - Increases the damage of melee-ranged abilities
    • Thorvin's Law - The first part applies to abilities that use the Spell calculation, but the second part applies to any abilities that deal damage that is not Physical
    • Vengeances - Proc on the use of any melee-ranged ability
    Please print this out and place it on the desk of your Rogue friend 1 cubicle over.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gyle View Post
    A rogue can top the parse on every boss in HK if they use the right spec, and it's been that way for months.

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